Rithm Capital Q1 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

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May 4, 2023

There are 10 speakers on the call.

Operator

Good morning, and welcome to the Rhythm Capital First Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call. All participants will be in the listen only mode. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. She had General Counsel, please go ahead.

Speaker 1

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. I would like to thank you for joining us Today for Rhythm Capital's Q1 2023 earnings call. Joining me today are Michael Nierenberg, Chairman, CEO and President of Rhythm Capital and Nick Santoro, Chief Financial Officer of Rhythm Capital. Throughout the call, we are going to reference the earnings supplement that posted this morning to the Rhythm Capital website, www.rhythmcap.com. If you've not already done so, I'd encourage you to download the presentation now.

Speaker 1

I would like to point out that certain statements made today will be forward looking statements. These statements, by their nature, are uncertain I may differ materially from actual results. I encourage you to review the disclaimers in our press release and earnings supplement regarding forward looking statements and to review the risk factors contained in our annual and quarterly reports filed with the SEC. In addition, we will be discussing some non GAAP financial measures during today's call. Reconciliations of these measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures can be found in our earnings supplement.

Speaker 1

And with that, I will turn the call over to Michael.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Emma. Good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us. The Q1 for Rhythm continued to show the earnings power of our company that we would not fight the Fed and that has proven to be a good strategy as book value is essentially unchanged away from a Away from a warrant exercise of 9,300,000 shares during the quarter, which impacted book value by $0.23 Over the past 2 years, Despite the Fed raising rates, we grew book value away from the warrant dilution by 12.3%, while paying out $1,000,000,000 in dividends. Our operating businesses performed well across the board.

Speaker 2

The challenges the regional banks are having and have had will create greater opportunities for all of our lending business lines. And we also see a huge pipeline of opportunities on both the asset side as well as some potential M and A. I can't remember a period of time when We're working on so many different deals and we're really excited about what's to come. Cash and liquidity sits in and around $1,500,000,000 putting us in a great to take advantage of the market dislocations we're seeing. We do expect plenty of assets to come out for sale into the marketplace as a result of some of the market Our 3rd party fund business continues to be a major focus as we transition to growing our business as an alternative asset manager.

Speaker 2

With that in mind, we are evaluating alternatives for our mortgage company and will likely file an S-one in the coming month. This will allow us to create other pools. We believe that we will raise significant pools of capital here over the course of the next 3 to 9 months, Which will allow us to grow earnings even more in the near future. Regarding our stock price, I feel that we're extremely undervalued. Are not many investment managers that can point to a 10 year track record with core earnings approximately 13% to 15% after paying out $4,500,000,000 of dividends.

Speaker 2

It's Time to see our share price reflect our performance. The notion that financial service companies with operating business lines trade below book or at book does not make sense to me. To create what we have done in others is not easy. Finally, with the stock buyback in place, we will likely begin buying back shares over time. Obviously, we'll balance this versus other pipelines other investments we have in our pipeline.

Speaker 2

Now I'll refer to the supplement, which has been posted online. I'm going to start with Page 4 actually, the economic landscape. Obviously, with the Fed raising rates yesterday, 25 basis points, again, we are not going to fight the Fed here With the market expectations that the Fed will lower rates, not have significant interest rate bets and continue to try to keep stable book And grow earnings for our company. The stress in the banking system will likely continue. And again, we do think this is going to create good opportunities for us as we're going to see more assets Come out for sale to the marketplace.

Speaker 2

Page 5, earnings. GAAP net income for the quarter, $68,900,000 or 0.14 dollars per diluted share earnings available for distribution also known as core earnings, dollars 171,100,000 or $0.35 1st quarter common dividend $0.25 at the end of March were trading at a 12.5 percent dividend yield. Cash and liquidity at the end of the quarter $1,600,000,000 total equity at the end of the quarter $6,900,000,000 Book value again $11.67 that reflects a $0.23 dilution from the impact of the warrant Last quarter, just for reference, was $12 So essentially, if you think about it this way, dollars 12 versus $11.90 despite all the volatility we in the markets is a pretty good result for the company. Page 6, the evolution of the company. We've expanded this slide a little bit just show a little bit more detail, the team is very, very proud as when we are externally managed by Fortress.

Speaker 2

In 2013, we bought $4,000,000,000 of loans from SpringCastle. 2015, the HLSS transaction, Which is really transformational for our company at that time. 2017, we still own Prosper. We bought We own 35 percent us and Soros and Third Point and Jefferies bought 35% of Prosper for a penny in exchange for buying some loans. We're still in that deal.

Speaker 2

2018 Shellpoint NewRez that was an acquisition that I created a fully licensed operating company. 2019, we bought Ditech out of bankruptcy as well as Gordian, which is our property pres business. 'twenty one, we bought Caliber 'twenty one, 'twenty two and then 'twenty three, we launched our private credit business or private capital business and we also launched Europe. So Real growth, real strategic as we think about where we're headed with our business. Page 7, Rhythm 2.0, I'll spend just a second on this.

Speaker 2

Operating companies, obviously, you can see to the left, investment portfolio, what we currently have in our business today. And then when you add our private capital businesses, we continue to work hard and grow that. We do have Big aspirations to take us to the next level in the alternative asset space. The other thing just point out, when you look at where alternative asset managers trade versus REITs, that's another reason why we're pivoting To growing into an alternative asset manager. Page 9, our mortgage company.

Speaker 2

I have Barron here, so when we get into Q and A, I'm sure Barron will answer some questions. Essentially, a very good quarter for the company. Everybody reports their earnings different in this space. I'd encourage you to Have a look at the way that we report versus some of our other friends and peers out there. The origination segment down $11,700,000 That's really just March February seasonality I'm sorry, January February from a seasonality perspective.

Speaker 2

March was breakeven. We laid out our corporate expense, pretax income for the company for the quarter, dollars 164,000,000 also laid out a pretax around potential M and A or potential assets. There's plenty of activity going on. So I think the look of the company today won't be the look of the company as we go forward down the road. 3rd party UPB, We've grown 18% since the beginning of 2022.

Speaker 2

There's a couple of opportunities for us to continue to grow that and we will do that. Delinquencies remain extremely low and we continue to focus on customer retention, obviously reducing expenses, profitability, branding and anything You'd want to be when you think about it very well run consumer company. For other metrics, we still have we service we have 3,000,000 customers in our Portfolio, our total portfolio of MSRs as a company is $600,000,000,000 During the quarter, we funded $7,000,000,000 of origination. Baron will talk to what we expect for the rest of the year. And then when the other slide just the other point on the slide to take a look at is our G and A numbers down 53% year over year and 12% quarter over quarter.

Speaker 2

Page 10, origination side. I'm not going to spend a ton of time here. Once again, 6 1000000 dollars pursue any and all opportunities around what we think are going to create 15% to 20% IRRs for that business. When we look at the funding and the channels, DTC is going to remain relatively quiet as most of the MSRs that we have in our Our low coupon MSRs, I believe our gross WACC is 3.8%. When you look at JV and retail, Same as we get into the season for purchasing homes, that channel will grow.

Speaker 2

And then corresponding to wholesale It's really something that you control based on your pricing in the marketplace. Page 11, When we look at the mortgage company and compare that to Rhythm as a whole, the mortgage company represents 75% of Rhythm's full MSR portfolio, Newly originated MSRs for the quarter, 637. Again, most of the MSRs that we have in our portfolio are well out of the money. Prepayment speeds are give or take 4 to 5 CPR. Page 12, when you look at multiples, our multiple right now is roughly 4.9.

Speaker 2

That includes all of our seasons. MSR is essentially roughly unchanged in the quarter, again in place. Page 13, our commercial real estate business. Greenbarn folks, we're starting to see Opportunities across the board there. I like this slide when you think about where we were and where we are.

Speaker 2

We have a 25 person team We're so now dedicated to focus on opportunities in the space. When you look to the bottom from an investment strategy, We will be doing and are doing some direct lending on assets. We'll be focused on distressed asset strategies or acquiring distressed assets. We're working with different developers around redevelopment and potential opportunities for equity. And then when we look at other platform investments, there's a huge need in that space for liquidity, both debt and equity.

Speaker 2

As you think about The maturity wall coming up where there's roughly $1,500,000,000,000 of loans that will mature over the next 3 years. We do think most loans will get extended. There'll be The B and C type properties will not, and we think that's going to create a great opportunity for our business as we go forward. Page 14, our Genesis business. We've diversified a lot there from where we were when we first acquired the company.

Speaker 2

We're adding more and more new sponsors. Some of these are going to be more around the fix and leverage. You're going to see 20% to 30% returns. We are going to grow that business. We're looking at opportunities there the regional banks likely contracting from a credit perspective, this will create, again, greater opportunities for us to deploy capital in that space.

Speaker 2

Single family rental space, essentially unchanged quarter over quarter. We are looking at a number of opportunities with Builders in this space, I think, are more likely to grow around larger asset acquisitions as well as through our builders That we have relationships where we lend to through the Genesis business, the very good business model. We still, as an investment company, don't need to deploy capital at, what I would say, 3, 4 or 5 cap rates. We are looking for higher cap rates When we balance out how we deploy capital or invest capital. Finally, the last page and then we'll turn it over to Q and A.

Speaker 2

Servicer advances, Essentially unchanged quarter over quarter. There's really not a lot to talk about there. We'll keep our eyes out for down the road to the extent that

Operator

Our first question is from the line of Bose George with KBW. Please go ahead.

Speaker 3

Hey, everyone. Good morning. Actually, can I get an update just on book value quarter to date?

Speaker 2

It's essentially unchanged, I think, from where we ended Q1.

Speaker 3

Okay, great. And actually, can you remind me, are there any other warrants that can still be exercised?

Speaker 2

No, that's it. So Fortress had some and Canyon had some. We had issued some warrants when we did our debt deal back in May of 2020, I think it was. So now they're all taken care of. Everything's been exercised.

Speaker 3

Okay, great. And then in terms of the MSR Opportunity, are you looking more at agencies or at Ginnie Mae? And can you sort of characterize the difference in the returns there?

Speaker 2

It's probably more, less Ginnie Mae, I would say. It's on the PLF.

Speaker 3

Return, right?

Speaker 2

Yes, with some term financing or some of our MSR

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Eric Hagen with BTIG. Please go ahead.

Speaker 4

We know that the origination market is slow, but curious how competitive you feel like you are with rates being volatile. How competitive do you feel like you can be if mortgage rates fall even more materially? And is there a channel that you feel like you're more competitive in When rates are volatile and how you think about positioning in those channels and so forth?

Speaker 5

Fair, why

Speaker 2

don't you take that?

Speaker 6

Yes. I mean, the 3rd party channels, I tell you with Some, obviously, Wells Fargo coming out of the market that we have some pricing ability to gain some margin back. And what we see is a lot more competition on just distributed retail with Just less inventory in the market overall. And I just think it's going to be kind of a cyclical aspect of where we can take market share in any one particular channels and we like the ability to have a maneuver between each one of the different channels.

Speaker 4

That you can support and how to really like unlock value from those strategies and opportunities. How much leverage do you feel like you can support and Comfortably maintained across the business?

Speaker 2

And Eric, in what in the mortgage company or in just overall?

Speaker 4

Just overall, as you layer the new opportunities? Yes.

Speaker 2

Yes. Yes. Everything that we'll do, I think, will I mean, we're raising pools of capital, more so on the equity side to deploy that capital. We're not here to overlever the balance sheet. I think Really where you look at front end yields, right?

Speaker 2

You got funds at 5 to 5.25. When you look at front end yields and where Things are from a financing perspective, it's more likely to do things unlevered or through some kind of term

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Doug Harter with Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.

Speaker 7

Thanks. Michael, as that one slide kind of portrays, you guys have been very opportunistic when there's been kind of turmoil in the market. I guess, what opportunities are you seeing from kind of the stress in regional banks? And how do you think that you're positioned to take advantage of that?

Speaker 2

Hey, Doug. So when we look at the regional banks, the one thing I would say being in this business for 35 years, We don't like to prey on somebody's misfortunes. So I think what you're seeing around some of the regional banks is Most likely driven by a lot of hedge funds and unfortunately, a number of your bank and some of the others, there's a lot of business lines, Some that really cross over our business, I. E, the Genesis business. I think you'll see there's People make loans to local developers.

Speaker 2

People make loans to all kinds of folks. When you look at Our lending business, whether it be on the Genesis side, the commercial real estate side and the ability to do some direct lending And even on the mortgage company side, I think those are going to prove to be businesses that we could really start Scaling up even more so. We like the Genesis business because the unlevered returns are roughly become you're going to start to see some consumer assets come out. We're working on a couple of pools right now. So the pipeline of stuff that we're looking at today and just separate MSRs for a second is some of the largest amounts of what I would call good investment opportunities we've seen in years years.

Speaker 2

Raising those pools of Private capital working with 3rd parties around that, I think, is going to prove to be extremely valuable for shareholders. When you look at the mortgage space around People not making money in origination, you are seeing some selling of MSRs. This is away from what I would call the bigger The large commercial bank who announced they're getting out of the correspondent business, that's probably unless they trade Cheaper, less interesting to us than some of the M and A opportunities we may be able to pursue and then acquire assets As a result that what I would call attractive levels. So I think it's going to be broad based. A lot of the stuff is going to be around the lending business.

Speaker 7

Great. And then in your prepared remarks, did you mention something about considering splitting out The mortgage business again?

Speaker 2

Our stock trades or how poorly our stock trades, I should say. I think for us, When I look at the mortgage company and the business that's been created there, we'll likely explore There's no guarantee which way we're going to take this thing, but we're likely going to file an S-one. We'll look at the possibility of creating A public entity out of it, which over time could allow us to really further diversify our business model. Great.

Speaker 7

Thank you, Michael.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Deb.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Giuliano Bologna with Compass Power. Please go ahead.

Speaker 5

Thank you. Actually, following up on that discussion about the mortgage company, I think last quarter, Jamaica mentioned Over the past couple of quarters, you kind of mentioned the potential for having kind of a separate company out there. I'd be curious when you think about this Potential SpinCo structure, would you want to move all the MSR assets over with it or would you try to would you rather make a more of a capital light vehicle out there? And then kind of following up on that same topic, you discussed wanting to have more of an asset and infrastructure. Could you in a sense spin that out and then collect that?

Speaker 2

Good question and the answer is yes. We'd like to create a we'd like to be one of the larger Players in alternative asset space, I think it's likely that you'd have an asset manager below that. You'd have some operating companies and obviously you'd have your funds business Similar to the more successful, the larger players in the marketplace. Regarding the mortgage company, I think everything is on the table. I mean, Quite frankly, it's a little bit frustrating when we put up very consistent earnings quarter after quarter.

Speaker 2

Book value has grown, as I Pointed out by 12% or so over the course of the past 2 years, yet the where we trade relative to book is just simply Too cheap. So we'll look at any and all opportunities to actually grow our share price. The one thing I would say is Being an investment manager, and I think I pointed this out earlier, we don't seem to just buy another MSR to buy another MSR to maintain a servicing portfolio of X. If there's a better opportunity to deploy capital, we'll do that.

Speaker 5

That's great. And in terms of those are buying back preferred to a discount, Yes, yields in the teens. And then even kind of going down that same thread, your high yield notes with the kind of at the holding company level Our trading is pretty wide and at a discount, so it could be accretive to chip away at those in the public markets and Yes. Reduce interest income and that creates some accretion. I'd be curious if you think about kind of how you think about your securities out there?

Speaker 2

Yes. I think I said in the opening remarks, we are we will likely pursue Some kind of stock buyback or acquire shares as we go forward assuming the stock continues to Trade where it does. The one thing I would point out is and not that misery likes the company, but we're not alone in where Our equity valuation is relative to other peers in the marketplace. The difference is I think our book value has been stable to higher Where some other folks probably haven't had that same success, so then they may trade closer to book. Growing book and then trading at a discount to book versus senior book value go down, it's a little bit frustrating, but the short answer is we'll wait.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Henry Coffey with Wedbush. Please go ahead.

Speaker 8

Yes. Good morning. I would just add, Michael, that we look at companies that have aren't earning their dividend, cutting their dividend, see lots of book value stress And companies that like yourselves that are earning their dividends that are not seeing a lot of book value stress and it's almost impossible to get the market To differentiate between that, but it must be frustrating. But The reality is when we talk to our bank analysts, the banks don't seem yet willing to Shed at least single family and multifamily assets, which would which look like some of the richest opportunities out there. It sounds like you're hearing a slightly different tune, but it also sounds like you're looking at a diverse range of possibilities, not just real estate Related assets.

Speaker 8

And where the opportunities are coming from for you in sort of general terms?

Speaker 2

So good morning, Henry. I hope all is well. When we look at opportunities, the consumer space there, what I would call very live opportunities for us Over the next couple of weeks that we're looking at, keep in mind as I went through our chronology of What I would call our early years of being born, there was a large transaction around SpringCastle where we bought a large portfolio of consumer loans. If you look at the Prosper deal, as I pointed out, that we did with Soros and others, that was another very good transaction. So the consumer stuff we know extremely well, And that will be front and center here over the next couple of weeks.

Speaker 2

I think the Genesis type loans that you see at some of the regional banks, Again, those will be front and center for us as well. All of these things yielding with Proper financing are in and around 15% to 20% at least. So we're really excited about those opportunities. On the mortgage company side, there's a couple what I would call mortgage company like things out there That we've looked at over time, we'll continue to look at that. On the commercial real estate space, during the quarter, we put out, I think something around $50,000,000 of net dollars on Family.

Speaker 2

So getting more active there. I would say on the commercial side, It's we need to be really patient. When loans go delinquent, banks don't hold on to delinquent loans. So those will come out over time. When you look at the regional side, the banks are going to pull back.

Speaker 2

There's a lot of assets out there. On the Signature side, Newmark has been I think it's Newmark has been hired by the FDIC to sell assets there. So you're going to see plenty of opportunities to deploy Capital. And it could range from consumer to real estate to residential side As well as on the commercial side. So realistically, anywhere where we think there is what I would call outsized opportunities for higher ROEs, Measuring appropriate risk returns, that's where we'll head.

Speaker 8

Great. Well, thank you. This is where the new focus plays out and gives you lots of touch points.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Trevor Cranston with JMP Securities. Please go ahead.

Speaker 9

Hey, thanks. You talked about your ambitions of the raise sort of maybe over the next 2 or 3 quarters in that business and some general sort of color around What kind of traction you've had so far in terms of raising funds? Thanks.

Speaker 2

Sure. So we're out with a, what I would call a multibillion dollar fund right now Financial Services or that's called Rhythm Asset Opportunities Fund. We have I would tell you that it's a huge focus of ours and mine. We have sat on a couple panels at some alternative Asset conferences, I've been traveling, what I would tell you, probably once a week. So I'm very, very hopeful that we're going to have some good success.

Speaker 2

Some of this stuff, like anything else in life, it's a relationship business. And as much as it's a relationship business, it's about past and future performance. And our performance numbers are very, very good. Our relationships are very, very good with what I would call our banks and other folks. And as we continue to develop more relationships with LPs and others around the world, I'm very, very hopeful and very optimistic that we're going to be able to raise pools of capital whose first close either and some of this could be more specific to what I would call, SMA specific strategies As well, but I would hope we get

Speaker 5

a first

Speaker 2

close here in late Q2 or early Q3 For the Fund.

Speaker 9

Got it. Okay. That's very helpful. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. This concludes our question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Michael Nierenberg, CEO, for closing remarks.

Speaker 2

Well, thanks for all your questions this morning. Look forward to hopefully Good quarter of performance and the growth of our business as we transition into other sectors that we're currently not deploying a lot of capital in. And look forward to updating you on the next call or over the quarter. Have a great day. Thanks, everyone.

Operator

Thank you. The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

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Rithm Capital Q1 2023
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