Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Q2 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

There are 14 speakers on the call.

Operator

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TSMC's Q2 2023 Earnings Conference Call. This is Jeff Su, TSMC's Director of Investor Relations and your host for today. TSMC is hosting our earnings conference call via live audio webcast through the company's website at www.tsmc.com, where you can also download the earnings release materials. If you are joining us through the conference call, your dial in lines are in listen only mode. The format for today's event will be as follows: First, TSMC's Vice President and CFO, Mr.

Operator

Wendell Huang, will summarize our operations in the Q2 2023, followed by our guidance for the Q3 2023. Afterwards, Mr. Huang, TSMC's CEO, Doctor. C. C.

Operator

Wei and TSMC's Chairman, Doctor. Mark Liu will jointly provide the company's key messages. Then we will open the line for a question and answer session. As usual, I would like to remind everybody that today's Discussions may contain forward looking statements that are subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results differ materially from those contained in the forward looking statements, please refer to the Safe Harbor notice that appears in our press release. And now I would like to turn the call over to TSMC's CFO, Mr.

Operator

Wendell Huang, for the summary of operations and the current quarter guidance.

Speaker 1

Thank you, Jeff. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. My presentation will start with financial highlights for the Q2 2023. After that, I will provide the guidance for the 3rd quarter. 2nd quarter revenue decreased 5.5% sequentially in NT or 6.2% in U.

Speaker 1

S. Dollars as our 2nd quarter business was impacted by the overall global economic conditions, which dampened the end market demand and led to customers' ongoing inventory adjustment. Gross margin decreased 2.2 percentage points sequentially to 54.1%, mainly reflecting lower capacity utilization and higher electricity cost, partially offset by more stringent cost control and a more favorable foreign exchange rate. Despite the industry's cyclical downturn, we continue to invest in R and D to support our N3 and N2 development. Thus, Operating margin was 42%, down 3.5 percentage points sequentially.

Speaker 1

Overall, our first quarter EPS was Nt7.01 and ROE was 23.2%. Now let's move on to revenue by technology. 5 nanometer process technology contributed 30% of our wafer revenue in the 2nd quarter, while 7 nanometer accounted for 23%. Advanced technologies defined as 7 nanometer and below accounted for 53% of wafer revenue. Moving on to revenue contribution by platform.

Speaker 1

HPC decreased 5% quarter over quarter to account for 44% of our 2nd quarter revenue. Smartphone decreased 9% to account for 33%. IoT decreased 11% to account for 8%, automotive increased 3% to account for 8% And DCE increased 25% to account for 3%. Moving on to the balance sheet. We ended the 2nd quarter with cash and marketable securities of TWD1.5 trillion or $48,000,000,000 On the liability side, current liabilities decreased by NT62 1,000,000,000, mainly due to the net decrease of KRW 87,000,000,000 in income tax payable as we pay KRW 120,000,000,000 for 2022 income tax, offset by NT33 1,000,000,000 accrued tax payables for the 2nd quarter.

Speaker 1

Long term interest bearing debt increased by NT53 1,000,000,000, mainly as we raised RMB41 1,000,000,000 in corporate bonds. On financial ratios, Accounts receivable turnover days decreased 2 days to 32 days, while days of inventory increased 3 days to 99 days, primarily due to entry ramp during the quarter. Regarding cash flow and CapEx, During the Q2, we generated about TWD167 1,000,000,000 in cash from operations, spent CNY251 1,000,000,000 in CapEx, distributed CNY71 1,000,000,000 for Q3 2022 cash dividend and raised KRW 41 1,000,000,000 from corporate bond issuances. Overall, our cash balance decreased by KRW109 1,000,000,000 to NT1.3 trillion at the end of the quarter. Free cash flow was negative NT83 1,000,000,000 during the quarter as operating cash flow was more than offset by capital expenditures, partly due to the income tax payment of RMB120 1,000,000,000.

Speaker 1

In U. S. Dollar terms, our 2nd quarter capital expenditures totaled RMB8.17 billion. I have finished my financial summary. Now let's turn to our current quarter guidance.

Speaker 1

Based on the current business outlook, we expect our 3rd quarter revenue to be between US16.7 billion dollars and $17,500,000,000 which represents a 9.1% sequential increase at the midpoint. Based on the exchange rate assumption of US1 dollars to NT30.8, gross margin is expected to be between 51.5% 53.5 percent. Operating margin to be between 38% 40%. This concludes my financial presentation. Now let me turn to our key messages.

Speaker 1

I will start by making some comments On our Q2 2023 and Q3 2023 profitability, compared to 1st quarter, Our 2nd quarter gross margin decreased by 220 basis points sequentially to 54.1%, primarily due to a lower capacity utilization. Compared to our 2nd quarter guidance, Our actual gross margin slightly exceeded the high end of the range provided 3 months ago, mainly due to more stringent cost control efforts and a slightly more favorable foreign exchange rate. We have just guided our 3rd quarter gross margin to decline by 1 point 6 percentage point to 52.5 percent at the midpoint, primarily as a higher level of capacity utilization rate is offset by 2 to 3 percentage points margin dilution from the initial ramp up of our 3 nanometer technology. Looking ahead to the Q4, we expect the continued steep ramp up of our 3 nanometer to dilute our 4th quarter gross margin by about 3 to 4 percentage points. In 2023, our gross margin faces challenges from lower capacity utilization due to semiconductor cyclicality, the ramp up of M3, overseas fab expansion and inflationary costs, including higher utility costs in Taiwan.

Speaker 1

To manage our profitability in 2023, We will work diligently on internal cost improvement efforts while continuing to sell our value. While we face near term challenges, we continue to forecast a long term gross margin of 53% and higher is achievable. Next, let me talk about our 2023 capital budget and depreciation. Every year, our CapEx is spent in anticipation of the growth that will follow in future years. Given the near term uncertainties, we continue to manage our business prudently and tighten up our capital spending where appropriate.

Speaker 1

We now expect our 2023 capital budget to be towards the lower end of our range of between US32 $1,000,000,000 $36,000,000,000 Our depreciation expense is now expected to increase by mid-20s percent year over year in 2023, mainly as we ramp our 3 nanometer technologies. Despite near term inventory cycle, our commitment to support customers' structural growth remains unchanged And our disciplined CapEx and capacity planning remains based on the long term market demand profile. We will continue to work closely with our customers to plan our long term capacity and invest in leading edge, specialty and advanced packaging technologies to support their growth, while delivering profitable growth to our shareholders. Now let me make a few comments on our cash dividend distribution policy. The objectives of TSMC's capital management are to fund the capital the company's growth organically, generate good profitability, preserve financial flexibility and distribute a sustainable and steadily increasing cash dividend to shareholders.

Speaker 1

As a result of our rigorous capital management, in May, TSMC Board of Directors approved The distribution of a NT3 per share cash dividend for the Q1 of 2023, up from NT2.75 NT previously. This will become the new minimum quarterly dividend level going forward. Q1 2023 cash dividend will be distributed in October 2023. For 2023, TSMC's shareholders will receive a total of NT11.25 per share dividend and at least NT12 per share cash dividend for 2024. Going forward, as our capital intensity begins to decline in the next several years.

Speaker 1

The focus of our cash dividend policy is expected to shift from a sustainable to a steadily increasing cash dividend per share in the next few years. Now let me turn the microphone over to C. C. C. C.

Speaker 2

Wei:] Thank you, Windho. Good afternoon, everyone. First, let me start with our near term demand and inventory. We concluded our 2nd quarter with revenue of USD 15,700,000,000 in line with our guidance in U. S.

Speaker 2

Dollar terms. Our business in the second quarter was impacted by the overall global economic conditions, which dampened the end market demand and customers' ongoing inventory adjustment. Moving into Q3 2023, While we have recently observed an increase in AI related demand, it is not enough to offset the overall by the strong ramp of our 3 nanometer technologies, partially offset by customers' continued inventory adjustment. In the last quarterly conference, we said we expect fabless semiconductor inventory To rebalance to a higher share level exceeding the 3rd quarter, this statement continued to hold true. However, Due to persistent weaker overall macroeconomic conditions, slower than expected demand recovery in China In overall soft end market demand conditions, customers are more cautious and intend to further control their inventory into for Q23.

Speaker 2

Thus, while we maintain our forecast for the 2023 semiconductor market excluding memory to decline mid single digit year over year. We now expect the foundry industry to decline mid teens and our full year 2023 revenue to decline around 10% in U. S. Dollar term. With such inventory control, we also forecast the fabless semiconductor inventory to exit 4Q 'twenty three at a healthier and lower level as compared to our expectation 3 months ago.

Speaker 2

Next, let me talk about HPC and TSMC's long term growth outlook. As we have said before, The massive structural increase in demand for computation underpinned by the industry megatrend of 5 gs and SPC continues to drive greater need for performance and energy efficient computing, which require use of leading edge technologies. These megatrends are expected to fuel TSMC's long term growth. Even with a more challenging 2023, Our revenue remains well on track to grow between 15 20 CAGR over the next several years in U. S.

Speaker 2

Dollar terms, which is a target we communicated back in January 2022 Investor Conference. The recent increase in AI related demand is directionally positive for TSMC. Generative AI requires higher computing power and interconnected bandwidth, which drive increasing semiconductor content, whether using CPUs, GPUs or AI accelerator and related ASIC for AI and machine learning. The commonality is that it require use of leading edge technology and a strong foundry design ecosystem. These are all TSMC's strengths.

Speaker 2

Today, server AI processor demand, which we define as the CPUs, GPUs and AI accelerators that are performing, training and inference functions accounts for approximately 6% of TSMC's total revenue. We forecast this to grow at close to 50 percent CAGR in the next 5 years and increase total teens percent of our revenue. The accessible need for energy efficient computation is starting from data centers, And we expect EVA proliferation to edge and end devices off time, which will further long term, which will drive further long term opportunities? We have already embedded certain assumption for AI demand into our long term CapEx and growth forecast. Our HPC platform is expected to be the main engine And the largest incremental contributor to TSMC's long term growth in the next several years.

Speaker 2

While the quantification of the total addressable opportunity is still ongoing, generative AI and large language model only reinforce the already strong conviction we have in the structurally mega trend to drive TSMC's long term growth, And we will closely monitor the development for further potential upside. Now let me talk About our N3 and N3e status, our 3 nanometer technology is the most advanced semiconductor technology in both PPA and the transistor technology. N3 is already in boarding production with good yield. We are seeing robust demand for N3 And expect a strong ramp up of N3 in the second half of this year, supported by both HPC and smartphone applications. N3 is expected to continue to contribute mid single digit percentage of our total wafer revenue in 2023.

Speaker 2

N3e further extend our N3 family with enhanced performance, power and yield and provide complete platform support for both HPC and smartphone applications. N3e has passed the qualification and achieve performance and yield target, and we'll start volume production in the Q4 of this year. With our continuous enhancement of 3 nanometer process technologies, we expect strong multiyear demand from our customers and are confident that our 3 nanometer family will be another large and long lasting node for TSMC. Finally, I'll talk about our N2 status. Our N2 technology development is progressing well And on track for volume production in 2025, our N2 will adopt narrow sheet transistor structure to provide our customer with the best performance, cost and technology maturity.

Speaker 2

Our narrow sheet technology has demonstrated excellent power efficiency and our N2 watt delivered full node performance and power benefits to address the increasing need for energy efficient computing. As part of N2 technology platform, We also developed N2 with backside power rail solution, which is best suited for HPC applications. Dxai Power Rail will provide 10% to 12% additional speed gain and 10% to 15% logic density boost On top of the baseline technology, we are targeting backside power rail to be available in the second half of 2025 to customers with production in 2026. We are observing a high level of customer interest and engagement at M2 from both HPC and smartphone applications. Our 2 nanometer technology will be the most advanced semiconductor technology in the industry in both density and energy efficiency when it is introduced and to further extend our technology leadership well into the future.

Speaker 2

This concludes my prepared remarks. And now let me turn the microphone over to Mark.

Speaker 3

Thank you, C. C, and good afternoon, everyone. Today, I want to talk about TSMC's global manufacturing footprint status update. TSMC's mission is to be the trusted technology and capacity provider of the global logic IC industry for years to come. Our strategy is to expand our global manufacturing footprint to increase customer trust and to expand our future growth potential and to reach for more global talents.

Speaker 3

Our overseas decision are based on our customers' needs and the necessary level of government support. That is to maximize the value of our shareholders and to fulfill our fiduciary duty. In Arizona, we are building a first fab to provide U. S. Most advanced semiconductor technology in mass production to support the needs for U.

Speaker 3

S. Semiconductor infrastructure. Our fab in Arizona started Construction in April 2021 with an aggressive schedule. We are now entering a critical phase of handling and installing the most advanced and the dedicated equipment. However, we are encountering certain challenges as there is an insufficient amount of skilled workers with those specialized expertise required for equipment installation in a semiconductor grade facility.

Speaker 3

While we are working on to improve the situation, including sending experienced technicians from Taiwan to train the local skilled workers for a short period of time. We expect the production schedule of N4 process technology to be pushed out to 2025. In Japan, we are building a specialty technology factory, which will utilize 12, 16 and 22, 28 process technologies. Volume production is on track for late 2024. In Europe, we are engaging with customers and partners to evaluate building a specialty fab in Germany, Focusing on automotive specific technologies based on the demand from our customers and the level of government support.

Speaker 3

In China, we are expanding 28 nanometer in Nanjing as we planned to support our customer in China, and we continue to follow all rules and regulations fully. At the same time, we continue to invest in Taiwan and to expand our capacity to support our customers' growth. From a cost perspective, the initial cost of overseas fab are higher than TSMC fabs in Taiwan due to: 1, the smaller fab scale 2, higher costs throughout the supply chain and 3, the early stage of semiconductor ecosystem on those overseas sites as compared to a matured economic ecosystem in Taiwan. In our recent meetings with senior government officials in the U. S, Japan and Europe, We discussed our plans to expand our global manufacturing footprint to them.

Speaker 3

We also emphasize One of our major responsibility is to manage and minimize the cost gap to maximize return for our shareholders. Those discussions went very well. All sides understand the critical and integral role TSMC plays in the semiconductor industry and we appreciate all the government's ongoing support in working with TSMC to help narrow down the cost gap. We will continue to work closely with all the governments to secure the further support. Our pricing will also remain strategic to reflect our value, which includes the value of geographic flexibility.

Speaker 3

At the same time, We will leverage our fundamental competitive advantage of manufacturing technology leadership, large volume and economies of scale to continuously drive our costs down. By taking such actions, TSMC will have the ability to absorb the higher cost of overseas fab, while remaining the cost remaining the most efficient and cost effective manufacturer no matter where we operate. Thus even as we expand our capacity overseas, TSMC's long term gross margin of 53% and higher And sustainable ROE of greater than 25% is achievable and we will continue to maximize the value for our shareholders. This concludes our key messages. Thank you for your attention.

Operator

Thank you, Chairman. This concludes our prepared statements. Before we start the Q and A session, I would like to remind everybody to please limit your questions to 2 at a time to allow all the participants an opportunity to ask their questions. Should you wish to raise your question in Chinese, Now let's begin the Q and A session. Operator, can we please proceed with the first caller on the line?

Speaker 4

The first one question is Gokul Hari Haran from JPMorgan. Go ahead please. Yes.

Speaker 5

Thank you. Good afternoon. And thanks for a lot of clarity on the AI related exposure. My first question is on the AI front. A lot of TSMC's customers have been talking about capacity shortage and Having to kind of queue up for capacity for AI accelerators, including GPUs and APICS, Could TSMC talk a little bit about what TSMC is doing on the capacity side, especially on the advanced packaging, but also on other areas?

Speaker 5

And when do you expect to get back to some degree of demand and supply balance For these AI accelerators, is it going to be only sometime next year or you think it could happen quicker Based on what you see on demand from your customers and the capacity plans.

Operator

Okay. Gokul, thank you. Let me Try to please allow me to summarize your first question. So first question from Gokul is that he notes that we are customers are seeing strong demand from AI related, but they're facing capacity tightness or shortage. So his question is, what are we doing in terms of the capacity side, maybe both in terms of the advanced packaging as well as the logic?

Operator

And then when do we see the demand supply imbalance returning to a better healthier balance level? Is it sometime next year? Is that correct roughly, Gokul?

Speaker 6

Yes. Thanks. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Okay. Gokul, this is C. C. Wei. Let me answer your question.

Speaker 2

For the AI, right now, we see a very strong demand, yes. For the front end part, we don't have any problem to support. But for the back end, The advanced packaging side, especially for the cohorts, we do have some very tight capacity to very hard to fulfill 100% of what customer needed. So we are working with customer for the short term to help them to fulfill the demand, but we are increasing our capacity as quickly as possible. And we expect that this tightening will be released in next year, probably towards the end of next year.

Speaker 2

But In between, we're still working closely with our customer to support their growth.

Speaker 5

Okay. And C. C, maybe one follow-up. Could you let us know what kind of capacity expansion is it like? Like how much capacity are you expanding on the cohort side?

Speaker 5

Like any kind of quantities of what kind of capacity you are adding?

Operator

Okay. So Gokul, just an additional to the first question, how much capacity are we going to increase in terms of COOS?

Speaker 2

Well, let me give you I will not give you the exact number, but let me give you a roughly, probably, 2x of the capacity will be aided. Okay,

Operator

Okay. Gokul, are you there? If not, operator, maybe we move on to the next participant. Gokul, are you there? Okay.

Operator

I think there was a disconnect disconnected. All right. Let's move on to the next caller participant, please.

Speaker 4

Next one to ask question, Bruce Lu from Goldman Sachs. Go ahead, please. Okay. Thank you for taking my question. I still want to know about like the TF and T maintained to 20% revenue figure when we cut this year's revenue to minus 10%.

Speaker 4

Right. That's we use that 15% revenue CAGR to 2026, that seems like about like 25% to 12% Presentation from the coming 2 years, which means that the overall semi growth is starting to increase like a lot for the next 2 to 3 years. And you just mentioned that the AI only accounts for 6% with low teens potentially. That is not big enough to Get back to the trend. So what is the underlying growth you have for the global training in the coming years?

Speaker 4

And what are the key assumptions for the growth for each segment?

Operator

Okay. Bruce, let me try to summarize your first question. So Bruce's first question is on our long term growth CAGR, which we have said is to be between 15% to 20% from 'twenty one to 'twenty six CAGR period. So Bruce's question this year, C. C.

Operator

Just said we will decline around 10%. Under his calculation, I think He's saying, well, this implies you should grow 25% the next several years, which, of course, this is a CAGR, but nonetheless. And so Bruce's question is that, therefore, if that's the type of growth, then shouldn't that imply a much higher growth level for the overall semiconductor, excluding memory industry. I think that is your question, Bruce. Am I correct?

Speaker 4

Yes. What are the key assumptions for this growth?

Speaker 3

Okay. Let me handle this question. The your rationale is correct. However, some of the factor may not be totally included. For one thing, in your model that customers gross margin is percent plus.

Speaker 3

I don't think that will represent the average customer's gross margin and maybe some specific ones. However, the other one is the market share. The market share factor, you assume the constant. That is not one thing that could be different than in your formula. So the semiconductor growth, right now, we are forecasting 4% to 5%.

Speaker 3

It may increase, but Definitely, as you said, it won't increase to 10%. But those longer term semiconductor excluding memory growth is still yet to be evaluated. Did I answer your question?

Speaker 4

Yes. The reason I do that is I'm assuming that you have like 1,000,000 market share in And also that the growth is mostly coming from the advanced node, which Your customer's gross margin is supposed to be higher. So I still think that the gap is wide enough. That's what I'm wondering Would I miss anything which might be bigger note to move the needle that might investment that the management might

Speaker 3

I don't this is a factor as far as the market share value, you might Not totally included, all the factors. That's my perspective. But I cannot Dig into the numerical comparison at this point. What I mean, the market share It's not just the advanced leading edge technologies but also the share of the outsourcing.

Operator

So maybe, Bruce, if I summarize again, TSMC's growth is driven by both the underlying structural megatrends, but also by our technology leadership and differentiation. So our CAGR is a combination of those two factors.

Speaker 1

Do you have any

Operator

yes, sorry. Go ahead. Yes.

Speaker 4

My next question is regarding to the guidance changes. The previous guidance was the full year was Yes, low to mid single digit. Now it's about like 10% decline. So the gap is like 5% of the total revenue, which is like Can you give us like what is what are the changes in terms of this shortfall? Where are the weaknesses come from?

Operator

Okay. So Bruce's second question is looking at our 2023 full year guidance. You noticed last time, we had said lowtomidsingledigit this time, we have guided to around 10%. So his question is the delta of this seems to be all a lot of it also in the Q4. So what is there any particular segment or market that is driving this?

Operator

And what are the factors behind this? Is that correct, Bruce?

Speaker 4

Yes. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Okay, Bruce. Let me answer the question. Yes, we did see something different. The first the macro is weaker than what we thought. 3 months ago, we probably more optimistic, but now it's not.

Speaker 2

Also that is for example, China economy's recovery is actually also weaker than what we thought. And so the end market demand actually did not grow as we expected. So put all together, even we have a very good AI processes demand, it's still not enough to offset all those kind of macro impact. So now we expect that the whole year will become minus 10%. That's what we thought.

Speaker 2

And in terms of by particular segment or is there a particular market? It's almost Thank you. You are asking me the question. It's almost impact.

Speaker 4

No, no, no. Yes.

Speaker 2

It's overall, all market segment is being impacted because of its combination of the macroeconomics.

Speaker 4

So can we conclude that other than AI, almost every application sees some weakness in the second half?

Speaker 2

You got it.

Speaker 4

Thank you.

Operator

Okay. Thank you, Bruce. Operator, can we move on to the next participant, please?

Speaker 4

Next one's last question is Gokul Harihalan from JPMorgan.

Operator

Gokul, you're back. Okay.

Speaker 5

Yes, sorry about that. So next question, just wanted to ask about TSMC Management's view on the current inventory cycle, it looks like this cycle is much taking it much longer to get through the down cycle Back to 2019 2015, when do you think we kind of bottom out? And do you feel that the recovery in next year is going to be a strong recovery? Or do you think it's going to be a more gradual recovery? What are the kind of plans that you're putting in place as we think about Next year's recovery once inventory situation backlightened.

Operator

Okay. So Gokul's Second question is about the inventory correction cycle. He notes this cycle seems to be taking much longer to get through as compared to 2019 or end 2015. So his second question is when do we think this cycle can bottom out? What will 2024 next year look like?

Operator

Do we expect a strong recovery? And what factors are we looking at? Is that correct, Gokul?

Speaker 6

Yes. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

Speaker 2

Okay. Gokul, this is a good question. Let me answer it in a short one sentence. It's all about the macro. I mean, I just said the macroeconomics is It's not so it's become weaker than we thought.

Speaker 2

In fact, high inflation and interest rate impact and demand in all market segment in every region in the world. As we said, under such situation, Our customers are more cautious in their inventory control in the second half of this year. So while we expect the fabless Semiconductor industry, their inventory to be cleaner and healthier exceeding existing this year But we're much closer to the seasonal level, but our expectation for JMD was continue to manage their inventory. And 2024, it is still dependent on the makeover situation.

Speaker 5

Okay. So, since we so that it sounds like you're still expecting At least early part of next year to still be a little bit challenging, similar to what it is looking like right now. Is that fair to say?

Speaker 2

We will give you our comment. Gokul, we will give you our comment next time

Speaker 4

Next one, we have Charlie Zhang from Morgan Stanley.

Speaker 7

Hi, gentlemen. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. So my first question is about the overseas fab cost seems to get higher. So would the TSMC consider to further adjust your pricing To absorb those increased costs.

Speaker 7

And also, management mentioned that you're doubling or more than doubling your packaging given the AI rush order, would that give you a chance to reprice The baking foundry service, because I remember there was kind of below Company's gross margin average, would that be a chance to bring that back to the corporate average? Thank you.

Operator

Okay. Charlie's first question is, I guess, regarding pricing, 2 parts or two angles. 1st, on the overseas fab, Given that the costs are higher, would TSMC consider to further adjust our wafer price? And So along similar lines related to advanced packaging, given we are cc said doubling roughly the capacity, would we consider to also charge more or higher given that the returns of the back end are lower?

Speaker 3

Let me answer the first question first. Yes, the overseas fab will cost higher, At least for the near future, where their supply ecosystem is not mature yet And the labor cost is, from our experience, actually, is a little bit higher than we expected. But to answer your question, yes, as we try to get the maximum government subsidy And we also really look at the how the price Value for the overseas geographical flexibilities is all considered. The aim is to 1, to increase our customer trust, make them continue to work with us going forward Under the geopolitical concerns, secondly is to maximize shareholders' value. To answer your question on price, Yes.

Speaker 3

Strategically, yes.

Speaker 8

All right.

Speaker 3

C. C, can you ask the second question? Okay.

Speaker 2

I think the second question is about The pricing or the on the cohorts, as I answered the question, we are increasing The capacity in as soon as possible manner, of course, that incurred in actual cost. So in fact, we are working with our customer. And most important thing for them right now is supply assurance. Is a supply to media demand. So we are working with them.

Speaker 2

We do everything possible to increase the capacity. And of course, at the same time, we see our value.

Operator

And then

Speaker 7

Got it. Thanks.

Speaker 6

So may

Speaker 7

I ask a second question? It's a different topic. Is that okay?

Operator

Sure. You get 2 questions, so sure.

Speaker 7

Thank you. Thanks, Jeff. So another question is about the AI Semi demand, right? Since you're providing Your revenue contribution growth assumption is super helpful. But I'm wondering how TSMC can judge the AI demand because right now It's arms race right now.

Speaker 7

Our customers are very aggressive booking capacity. So I'm wondering how company can judge Whether those AIC demand is for real? And also in terms of breakdown, I'm wondering whether I mean, she said that ASIC, the custom chip is outgrowing GPU. I think the more important one should be the first part of the question, Especially investors are concerned whether AI is cannibalizing the CPU server demand. So those are kind of questions in our mind.

Speaker 7

Thank you.

Operator

Okay. Let me summarize your second question, Charlie. Charlie is on AI demand. He wants to know how do we Judge the demand properly because customers are very aggressive, but how in his words, how do we know that this demand is real? And then also how do we see the demand specifically for ASICs as it relates to AI?

Speaker 2

Okay. You want to answer?

Speaker 3

Let me try first and you probably follow-up on this. This is a very deep question. Of course, we have a model basically. The short term frenzy about the AI demand Definitely cannot extrapolate for the long term. And neither can we predict the near future, meaning next year, how the Certain demand will continue or will flatten out.

Speaker 3

However, our model is based on the data center structure, we assume a certain percentage of the data center processor are AI processors. And based on that, we calculate the AI's processor demand. And This model is yet to be fitted to the practical data later on. But in general, I think the our trend of a big portion of data center Processor will be AI processor is a sure thing. And will it Cloud service provider are fixed.

Speaker 3

Yes, it will. It is. But as for the long term, when their data service when the cloud service having the generated AI service Revenue, I think they will increase the CapEx. That should be consistent with the long term AI processor demand. And I mean, the CapEx will increase because of generative AI services.

Speaker 3

Anything more for you?

Operator

Yes. Charlie, I think part of Charlie's question is also how do we see ASIC related in AI development?

Speaker 2

Well, actually, the customer also have a high demand on the ASIC parts for the application. And as Mark pointed out, a short term sudden increase, you cannot extrapolate to be long term. So but Again, let me emphasize that. Those kind of application in the AI, Be it CPUs, GPUs or AI accelerator or ASIC, they all need leading edge technologies. And they all have one symptom.

Speaker 2

They are using the very large die size, which is TSMC's

Operator

Okay. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you

Speaker 7

very much.

Operator

Thank you. Operator, can we move on to the next participant, please?

Speaker 4

Next one to ask questions, Randy Abrams, please.

Speaker 9

Yes. Thank you. I wanted to shift to the profitability, maybe more for Wendell. For and looking at the Q4, you mentioned the 3 to 4 points dilution from N3. I think that was 2 to 3 points in 3rd quarter.

Speaker 9

Is that what

Speaker 2

you're suggesting the directional change could be

Speaker 9

a little bit down margin I think the directional change could be a little bit down margin profile or do you have positive offsets That could keep it more stable. And then a follow-up on the margin where you discussed it's a tough year for margins on these factors like the energy Ramp of 3. But could you discuss 2024? Do you think we're going into a period of a bit more challenging profitability or you see factors that we could comfortably get back to the 53% and above next year.

Operator

Okay. Thank you, Randy. So Randy's first question is on gross margin. 4th quarter, with the N3 dilution of 3% to 4%, does that mean directionally, 4th quarter margin is sequentially down. Are there any positive offsets?

Operator

And then for looking to 2024 for the full year, If Wendell can give some comments about 2024 gross margin, will it also be challenging? Or do we still feel confident in a 53% and higher gross margin.

Speaker 1

Okay, Randy. Starting from the second half of this year, as we said, We face certain cost challenges, including the ramp of M3, which will dilute about 2 to 3 percentage points in 3rd quarter and 3 to 4 in the 4th quarter plus the higher electricity cost. But we're not giving our guidance on the 4th quarter at this moment. We're just Spelling out some of the challenges that we're seeing. And of course, we are going to continue to drive down our cost and cellular value to ensure that we will have a good return on the node.

Speaker 1

That's for this year. For next year, we're seeing we're not talking about the whole gross margin, but we still see that N3 will dilute about 3 to 4 percentage points of next year's gross margin. And although the yield rate will be better next year. At the same time, the percentage of revenue contributed by N3 will be bigger. So net net worth, we also see some dilution from the N3 next year.

Speaker 1

But the margin the guidance will be given out next year.

Speaker 4

Okay. A quick follow-up to

Speaker 9

the first question. I think the last few notes was 2 to 3 point dilution in the 1st year or 2 of ramp. The factor for it larger is it the higher

Speaker 6

capital intensity or something different

Speaker 9

with 3 versus 5 intensity or something different with 3 versus 57 or it looks like a little bit more dilution?

Speaker 1

Yes. The increasing process complexity does add on to the challenges of a newer node. However, The other important factor is that our corporate averages has become higher than before. We used to have 50% gross margin, we're now talking about 53% and higher gross margin.

Speaker 9

Okay. And the second question, I wanted to ask how you're thinking about CapEx, just netting up a few things, the geographic expansion, the 3 and then the start of Of 2 nanometer, the first ramp up our tool move in versus the mixed outlook you're looking at for macro For a ballpark CapEx into next year. And if I could maybe within it ask if the Arizona fab delays, does that push out Where you mentioned the low end of guidance push out some of this year to give some lift to next year.

Operator

Okay. So Randy's second question is on CapEx. He wants to know basically focusing on 2024 CapEx, Do some of the delays in the Arizona fab push out CapEx from this year to next year as we expand overseas, as we invest and N2, but at the same time as the macro remains uncertain, how does this impact 2024 CapEx?

Speaker 1

Yes. Randy, the push out of fabs does push out some part of the CapEx, but that doesn't affect a big part. For 2024, it's too early to talk about the overall CapEx. However, our CapEx, If you as we said before, every year we spent the CapEx to capture the future growth opportunities. In the past few years, our CapEx has risen very fast to capture the megatrend.

Speaker 1

And going forward, the next few years, when we start to harvest those investment, We believe the CapEx will begin to level off in terms of dollar amount. And that will lead to Start to lower the capital intensity in the next several years.

Operator

Sorry, Randy. Sorry, do you

Speaker 4

Again, my quick follow-up. I think you mentioned in

Speaker 9

the past you could use your 5 nanometer to support the ramp of 3. Given the AI and some of that pickup, do you still see that potential It could help optimize CapEx or do you need to keep it for existing node? And that's my final one. Thank you.

Operator

Yes. So Randy is just Also asking then how does tool commonality play a role in our future CapEx?

Speaker 1

Yes. We always build the 2 kind of loyalty between nodes to provide a greater flexibility. We mentioned last time the strong multiyear demand from M3. We are able to support that using some of the tools from M5. We're not going to comment on the CapEx beyond this However, as I just mentioned, every year, the CapEx spend to capture the future growth opportunities.

Operator

Thank you, Randy. Operator, can we move on to the next participant?

Speaker 4

Next one to ask questions is Laura Chen from Citi.

Speaker 10

Thank you very much Very appreciate C. C. And Mark sharing on TSMC's view on the longer term outlook in AI. So I'm just wondering how does TSMC evaluate your back end capacity expansion to think of with the fan and wafer side. Since there is no problem in the front end and foundry space, were you kind of concerned about potential overcapacity in the back end side beyond next year?

Speaker 10

Or actually, we may see more upside at the foundry wafer size. So our say like advanced node, your duration rate may go Higher into next year?

Operator

Okay. So Laurel's first question is looking at Our expansion of advanced packaging or back end versus the front end wafer, as we are expanding the back end, but not the front end, Does that imply that, first, that our front end wafer, particularly leading node, we expect the utilization to increase next year? And then conversely, or is there a risk that we are over expanding or overcapacity risk for the packaging side?

Speaker 2

Okay, Laura. Let me answer the question. AI today is a very hot topic. A lot of my customer right now increased their demand, and that one increased their front end demand, of course. TSMC almost have the major share or the largest share, let me say that, in the front end wafer.

Speaker 2

According to that Fangyan's loading, we really work closely with our customer and to decide what is the back end that they need. And so on that perspective, We are planning our cohort's capacity, although probably still not enough, but we're working very hard to increase it. Overcapacity, not today's concern. Today's concern is not enough capacity to support all the very strong demand.

Operator

Okay. Thank you, C. C.

Speaker 10

Thank you. That's very clear. Thank you very much, C. C. And my second question is also about the gross margin outlook.

Speaker 10

If you I'm wrong, please correct me. I recall that the previous cycle like 7 or 5 nanometer, the capacity usually will be 3 times in the 3rd year of the new technology ramping. So I'm still I'm wondering is still the case for N3. In particular, we are seeing that significant capacity intensity increase may lead to some margin pressure, particularly in the 1st few years. So I'm just wondering how does TSMC balance your technology leadership and also the margin saturation?

Operator

Laura, you said 3x sorry, are you referring to the revenue contribution? Sorry, you said NCL?

Speaker 10

The capacity.

Operator

Okay. So all right, let me try to summarize your question. I think Laura is asking N7N5, we substantially expand the capacity. So what is the case for N3? And then also in terms of the profitability of N3 or gross margin, to be more specific, as compares to N5 and N7 previously.

Operator

Is that roughly correct, Laura?

Speaker 10

Yes. Thank you, Jay.

Speaker 1

Okay, Laura. Let me answer this question. As I just mentioned, the N3, due to the increasing process complexity, is becoming more challenging than the previous notes. We but at the same time, we will continue to sell our value and drive down the cost at the same time. But the we still believe that N3 will be a long lasting and Long lasting note, a large note for TSMC.

Speaker 1

With all the efforts and We still believe that the whole company's gross margin will be 53% and higher.

Operator

Okay. Laura, does that answer your question? Thank you very much.

Speaker 6

Appreciate it.

Operator

Yes. Okay. Thank you, Laura.

Speaker 4

Thank you.

Operator

Operator, let's move on to the next participant, please.

Speaker 4

Yes. Right now, we have Rob Bolt from New Street Research. Go ahead, please.

Speaker 8

Thank you for taking my question. This quarter, your revenues in the legacy nodes, 16 and 28 nanometer in particular, were down around 15% to 20% Q on Q. And my question is, were there any particular end markets that caused this decline? And how do you think about recovery of those legacy nodes? Should we still expect recovery in the 4th quarter of this year?

Speaker 8

Or is that more 2024? Thank you.

Operator

Okay. So Rolf's first question is looking on the mature nodes such as 1628. He knows that he notes, sorry, that those all saw sequential declines in the 2nd quarter. So his question is what is driving this what end markets are driving this decline and what is the expectation for this in the second half?

Speaker 2

Well, let me answer that question. The mature nodes wafer reactor or the product actually try to be companionship for the smartphone or for the PC market or for the HPC. So while the total unit of Smartphone become weaker and PC become weaker, so is the high the leading edge technology node Being also demand dropping and so the mature node, that's together. Did I answer your question?

Speaker 8

Yes. Thank you. That's very clear. My second question, given your focus on cobalt and advanced packaging in general And also the weakness that you see in the remainder of your business, could you maybe comment on the percentage of your CapEx Spending that will go towards leading notes, specialty notes and packaging this year compared to last year.

Operator

Okay. So Rolf's second question is for 2023 CapEx, which our CFO has said towards the lower end of the 32% to 36% range, can we give a breakdown between leading edge specialty technologies and then the packaging, testing, mask making and others.

Speaker 1

Leading edge technology accounts for between 70% to 80% of our total CapEx in the year, Mature specialty technology between 10% to 20% and the remaining are split between advanced packaging and EBO and some others.

Operator

Okay. Thank you, Rolf.

Speaker 8

Perfect. Thank you.

Operator

All right. Operator, let's move on to the next participant, please.

Speaker 4

Next one, we have Sunny Lin from UBS.

Speaker 11

Thank you very much. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my questions. So my number one question is on 3 nanometer ramp up. As we are going through several I think you must have pretty good visibility for customer engagement for the coming few years.

Speaker 11

So I wonder Now how should we think about the overall ramp of 3 nanometer if we compare with 5 and 7 nanometer? If we look at 5%, you reached toward 18% of revenue in the 2nd year of mass production and then About 24% of revenue in the 3rd year. Whereas for 3 nanometer, I think the concerns By smartphone customers have been on cost. Then the question will be if HPC is significant enough to still drive a meaningful pickup of 3 nanometer. And so it would be greatly appreciated if you could provide us any kind of thoughts.

Speaker 11

Thank you very much.

Operator

Okay. So Sunny's first question is on the ramp of 3 nanometer. Her question really, I believe, is coming from a percentage of revenue contribution. She wants to know How is the ramp of 3 nanometer? And then can it contribute to the revenue like N57 in the past?

Speaker 1

Yes. As I just said, we believe N3 will be a long lasting and large node for TSMC. Now in terms of percentage, I think it's Sometimes less important because our overall corporate revenue is much, much bigger these days than before. So I think you should also take that into consideration. But dollar amount wise, it's a much bigger note.

Operator

And CC also said it's multiyear strong structural demand. Yes. Sorry. Okay.

Speaker 11

Got it. Well, so I have a quick follow-up on 3 nanometer profitability. And so Wendell has provided pretty good insight about the dilution for 2024. But historically, a new node would take about 7 to 8 quarters to get to corporate average after mass production. I understand now corporate average gross margin is also higher.

Speaker 11

But any expectations That NCE will become in line with corporate average gross margin?

Operator

Yes. So Sunny's question is looking at the 3 nanometer. Her question is really that with 3 nanometer and process complexity, Sunny, you're asking really kind of reach the corporate average over time?

Speaker 11

Or is there And time line that you are expecting?

Operator

And time line to reach?

Speaker 1

Yes. Sunny, as I just mentioned, it's becoming more challenging for the leading nodes because of the process complexity increases a lot. It applies to N3. So it will be challenging for N3. And we actually mentioned that at the beginning of last year already, it will be challenging that for N3 to reach the corporate average in the In 7 to 8 quarters time frame like before.

Speaker 1

Yes, but however, part of it is really because of the Higher corporate margin that we currently have.

Speaker 11

Got it. Thank you. My second question is on 2 nanometer. And so if we look at your target for 2 nanometer improvement over 3 nanometer In terms of speed and power, the upgrade seems to be actually less than 3 nanometer over 5 nanometer. So I wonder what's actually the implication of GAA transition to cost versus performance?

Speaker 11

Is the target somewhat conservative Or there's other technological challenges that we need to consider?

Operator

Okay. Sunny's second well, it's It's really her 3rd, but the question is on N2. She notes that the performance and the improvement seem to be less then 3 nanometer versus 5 nanometer. So could we talk more about that?

Speaker 2

Yes. Let me answer the question. Sunny, you have a very good observation. Yes, you are right. As I compare node to node from 5 to 3, The improvement, it become less from 3 to 2.

Speaker 2

But let me point it out, usually, we are talking about the performance, The speed and also the density, so that the geometry shrinkage. Now we focus on the power consumption reduction, which is still a full node performance because of as time goes by, more and more Customer really, they are increasing toward greater power efficiency. This is very important for the Data center very important for the server, and that's what we are working on. So did I

Speaker 11

Got it. Thank you for the color and good to know That you're on track to deliver a 2nd generation of 2 nanometer in 2026. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you, Sunny. Operator, let's move on to the next participant, please.

Speaker 4

Next one to ask question, Brett Simpson from Euretone.

Speaker 12

Yes. Thanks very much. The first question is for CC. Was interested in getting a lead on the customer reception You're getting for the new variant for N3. I think you talked about N3P, N3X.

Speaker 12

Are customers still as focused on N3E? Or are you seeing a preference for them to migrate to the new variant such as N3P, N3X Rather than the N3e? And this is a follow on. For AI, when do we actually start to see N3 adoption

Operator

Okay. So Brett's first question is looking at 3 nanometer families and the continuous enhancements that we always have. He is asking what is the customer reception of N3P and N3X? How does this compare or cannibalize N3? And when do we expect AI related to adopt 3 nanometer family solutions?

Speaker 2

Let me answer the last one first. AI application already adopting that our N3 technology node. We continue to improve our technology as we always do. So we have a N3e, N3P, N3X, X is the actual performance that's for the very high speed, very high, Let me say performance computing for some of the CPUs application. But N3e is widely accepted by all my customer.

Speaker 2

And their design starting from N3e, and we help them, okay, for some of them go to the N3P. So altogether, the every version, every variation, there's a lot of customer engagement right now.

Operator

Okay. Thank you, C. C.

Speaker 12

Okay. And maybe just the second my Like the U. S. And you were talking about skill shortage, but can you talk about what you think the like for like wafer cost difference is To operate in the U. S.

Speaker 12

Versus Taiwan, I think your TSMC founder talked previously about a 50% premium to operate in the U. S. Can you just clarify if it's likely to be that high? And then when would you expect the Cash support from U. S.

Speaker 12

Chip Act to be made available to TSMC.

Operator

Okay. So Brett's second question is for Chairman. He wants to know Basically, the cost gap, how big is the cost gap of fab in the U. S. Versus in Taiwan?

Operator

Founder has said 50% or more. Is it that high? And then concurrently with the CHIPS Act, when or how and when do we expect to receive the incentives to support?

Speaker 3

Yes. Simpson, I think the founder is right. I mean, at this point, if we're using the current supply chain And labor cost, indeed, that's the differences. However, we try to work with the U. S.

Speaker 3

Administration. First of all, on the subsidy, cash subsidy and tax Investment tax credit, that is to cover the gap in the 1st 5 years approximately. When the tool is depreciated, then the ecosystem becomes prominent. That is, what is that, material cost, chemical cost and the labor cost. And we are working with the our supplier to set up some of the More efficient supply sites and to be lower, but they and U.

Speaker 3

S. Administration has decided to also to subsidize the supply our suppliers. So that is still in the work. How much It can further decrease, I don't know. But I think either way, we will strengthen our Pricing values and be able to keep the corporate profitability as we forecasted now.

Operator

Thank you, Chairman. Okay. Thank you, Brett. In the interest of time, operator, we'll take Questions from the last two participants in the queue, please.

Speaker 4

Yes. Next one to ask question, Madi Houdini from SIG.

Speaker 13

Yes. Thanks for taking my question. I'm going to go back to the gross margin. And I think you highlighted the fact that for 23, You're still tracking to 53% gross margin on a USD basis. That would imply that Q4 could be flat to up.

Speaker 13

I just want to better understand how this tracking. I'm not asking for a guide on the Q4, but If 2023 gross margin is going to be 53% plus, that would imply Q4 flat to up. Is that correct?

Operator

All right, Mehdi. I think we'll let Wendell answer this question. But Madi is asking basically, are we saying that 2023 will be 53% and higher?

Speaker 1

Madi, we're not giving our guidance beyond this Q3. So we're not saying what Jeff just said. What we're saying is only some of the negative factors will affect The second half of the year. As to 53% and higher, that's a long term gross margin targets for TSMC.

Operator

Yes. We did not provide a guidance for 2023 specifically, Medias. Wendell just said, 53% or higher is our long term target, which we believe is achievable. Do you have a second question?

Speaker 13

Okay. Thank you, Hakan. Yes. Your updated guide suggests that revenues in the second half would be up 10% to 12% versus the first half. Obviously, that step up is lower than prior expectation.

Speaker 13

What I want to better understand is how should we think about Continued inventory correction among your customer versus new product ramp by Some of the other customers, is there any way you can differentiate these two trends?

Operator

Okay. Madi is asking with our full year guidance, it implies a more mild second half seasonality. So he wants to know how much strength of the new customer product launches is offset by continued inventory correction, Sort of if we can provide more color on that.

Speaker 2

That's a tough question to answer. Your observation is right. Our second half seasonality is more minor than previous years. But of course, we have N3 ramped up and for the new product launch. But what is the impact?

Speaker 2

How to separate them? Now I cannot share the too much of the detail of that.

Operator

Okay, Mehdi?

Speaker 4

Okay.

Operator

Thank you. Operator, then let's move on to the last participant, please. Yes.

Speaker 4

The last one on queue It's Chang Shi from Midland.

Speaker 6

Thanks. Hi, thanks for squeezing me in. I Two questions. The first question is I want to ask about AI, especially around TSMC's monetization AI trend, we did hear some commentary that for certain AI applications, TSMC selling ships for a few $100 but the TSMC customers can actually sell for tens of 1,000 of dollars to their end customers. So I mean, some investors I spoke with really feel it pains them To see TSMC creative advanced technology, there probably is no greater value than this.

Speaker 6

So the question really is How does TSMC think about maybe better monetization going forward for the capability to produce all these AI chips? And really I want to tie back to one thing management mentioned in the prepared remarks. The AI growth 50% CAGR, How much of that is volume and how much of that could be the pricing even in terms of our key adventures expected to grow over the next few years? Thank you.

Operator

Okay. Charles' question first is on AI. Again, basically, he's asking about monetization or capturing value, let's say. He notes that TSMC, we may be selling chips for a few $100 but our Learners are able to sell it for tens of 1,000 or even more. So is TSMC giving away too much of the value?

Operator

Can we better sell our value or monetize

Speaker 2

Well, Charles, I used to make a joke on my customer, say that I selling him a few $100 per chip and then he sold it back to me with $200,000. But let me say that we are happy to see customer doing very well. And if customer do well, TSMP does well. And of course, we work with them, and we share our value to them. And fundamentally, we want to say that We are able to address and capture a major portion of the market in terms of semiconductor component in AI.

Speaker 2

Did I answer your question?

Speaker 6

Yes. What about The part about 50% cable, how much of that is volume? And should we expect some pricing element in that long term growth?

Speaker 2

I'm sorry.

Operator

Yes. So the second part is about close to 50% CAGR for AI sorry, server with AI processor, how much of that is volume? How much of that is price?

Speaker 2

We cannot separate out, but let me share with you again. We talked to The customers, because of what we have a major share of that all the leading edge technology node, So we know that we can make our judgment. And so we forecast 50% CAGR. How much of that is on the front end, back end or others? I am not able to share with you about it.

Speaker 2

But let me assure you that TSMC is going to capture a major portion of the market in terms of semiconductor component.

Operator

Okay, Charles?

Speaker 6

Thank you. Can I ask your second question?

Operator

Last question.

Speaker 6

Yes, no problem. Last one. May I ask about the CapEx? I think I heard a Maybe some window about our dollar amount CapEx is probably going to level off frontier. And I think the management used to point us analysts to look at the 2010 to 2013 period with the high capital intensity.

Speaker 6

Actually went up from $3,000,000,000 $4,000,000,000 per year to $10,000,000,000 and actually after that, TSMC CapEx level of around the RMB10 1,000,000,000 level for roughly 5 years until 2019. By telling us that the CapEx probably going to level off, are you telling us or are you alluding to maybe There will be some steady state CapEx numbers going forward, maybe starting from $24,000,000,000 $25,000,000,000 around $30,000,000,000 ish level. That's just a clarification on that comment on leveling up.

Operator

Okay. So Charles' second question is on our CapEx. He wants to know capital spending starting to level off, I think Wendell said, in the next several years. So not any specific, but what does that mean? Is it going to stay around the 30 some level?

Operator

Or what does that mean by

Speaker 1

Yes. The Charles, as I've mentioned in the past few years, our CapEx increased dramatically from RMB10 1,000,000,000 to RMB36 1,000,000,000 last year. As we start to harvest those investment, The increase in CapEx will be slower than before. That's what I mean by leveling off.

Speaker 6

Okay. All right, Charles? Yes.

Operator

Okay. Thank you.

Speaker 6

Yes. Thank you.

Operator

Okay. Operator, this concludes our Q and A session. Before we conclude today's conference, please be advised that the replay of the call will be accessible within 30 minutes from now. The transcript will become available 24 hours from now, both of which you can be find and available through TSMC's website atwww.tsmc.com. So thank you for joining us today.

Operator

We hope everyone continues to stay well. Have a good rest of the summer, and we hope you will join us again next quarter. Goodbye, and have a good day.

Earnings Conference Call
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Q2 2023
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