Hafnia Q2 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
August 25, 2023

There are 7 speakers on the call.

Operator

Welcome to Hafnia's 2nd Quarter and Half Year 2023 Financial Results presentation. We will begin shortly. You will be brought through the presentation by Hafner's CEO, Michael Scoff CFO, Peri Van Eckdelt, EVP, Commercial Jens Christoffersen, EVP Head of Commercial and Head of for Investor Relations' Thomas Anderson. They will be pleased to address any questions after presentation. Should you have any questions, you can submit them via the chat function or use the raise hand function to be unmuted to ask your question verbally.

Operator

Questions will be answered at the end of the presentation. You will receive further instructions as required. Certain statements in this conference call may constitute forward looking statements based upon management's current expectations and include known and unknown risks, uncertainties and other factors, many of which Hafnia is unable to predict or control, that may cause Hafnia's actual results, performance or plans to differ materially from any future results, performance or plans expressed or implied by such forward looking statements. In addition, nothing in this conference call constitutes an offer to purchase or sell or a solicitation of an offer to purchase or sell any securities. With that, I'm pleased to turn the call over to Hafnia's CEO, Michael Skoff.

Speaker 1

Thank you.

Speaker 2

My name is Michael Scoff, and I'm the CEO of Hafnia. Let me welcome and thank all of you for attending Hafnia's 2nd quarter 2023 conference call. With me here today are our CFO, Perif van Eckstelt EVP for Commercial, Jens Christoffersen and EVP, Head of Investor Relations, Thomas Anderson. The 4 of us will present half near second quarter and first half of twenty twenty three financials. Today's presentation, we will be touching on 4 key areas.

Speaker 2

We will start off with an overview of the key highlights of the quarter, followed by the financials of the second quarter and first half of twenty twenty three. Next up, we will share on commercial updates and provide an outlook on the product tanker market before concluding the presentation with our ESG overview. Let's move to Slide number 2. You should all be aware and take note of the mandatory disclaimer. Let me begin by giving an overview of Hafnia and the main highlights in the Q2.

Speaker 2

Moving into Slide number 4. Hafnia is one of the world's leading tanker owners and operators within the product and chemical tanker market. Hafnia operates as a fully integrated shipping platform with our own in house technical management and chartering teams in Asia, Europe, the Middle East and the USA. With a robust business model, Hafner has secured its position as one of the foremost players in the industry. Our shipping platform consists of diversified revenue streams, such as pool management and bunker procurement services.

Speaker 2

Bunkering team has been actively procuring fuel for over 1,000 vessels within our pool platform and for external ship owners, whereas Hafneur operates a fleet of over 200 vessels commercially. At the end of the quarter, We owned and chartered a diversified portfolio of 128 vessels. Our own vessels have an average broker valuation of $4,300,000,000 giving Hafnia an estimated net asset value of $3,500,000,000 this quarter. This represents an NAV per share of around $7 or NOK75.6, representing significant upside in Hafnia's share. In Hafnia, we seek to consistently review the markets for any right opportunities as part of our active management strategy.

Speaker 2

And through our fleet renewal strategy, We can maintain Hafnia's fleet at a low average age of 7.9 years to enhance its utilization and improve its earnings. Moving to Slide number 5. Moving on, I would like to provide some key updates on Hafnia for this quarter. As part of Hafnia's continuous drive In transition towards the Green and Maritime Sector, I'm proud to announce that Hafner has successfully concluded a joint venture agreement with Socotah. As part of the joint venture, we placed an order for 4 dual fuel methanolchemical IMO 2 MR Newbuilds to be constructed at Guangzhou Shipyard International in China.

Speaker 2

3 of the vessels will be scheduled for delivery in 2025 with the 4th in 2026. Upon delivery, these vessels will be charted out on long term time charter arrangements to our long standing partners, Total Energies. This represents another step in Hafneur's decarbonization journey and our first venture into a future green methanol landscape as an alternative marine fuel with a net zero trajectory. The use of free methanol will substantially reduce nitrogen oxides and CO2 emissions on a tank to wake when compared to traditional marine fuels. While this is Hafneur's first investment into methanol as a fuel, This is not our first step in the dual fuel sector.

Speaker 2

As part of our Vista joint venture, We have, in the Q2, already taken delivery of our second of 4 LR2 LNG dual fueled newbuilds. Additionally, aligning well with our fleet renewal strategy, we have in the second quarter welcomed the delivery of 2 MR IMO2 chemical vessels into our fleet as well as another LR1 IMO2 chemical vessel in July. These acquisitions will strengthen our presence in the deep sea chemical market, enabling us to offer additional sailings and increased flexibility to our valued partners and clients. Harry, why don't you take us through our financials?

Speaker 3

Thanks, Michael. Despite high volatility in the product tanker market in the second quarter, I'm happy to announce that Hafnia has delivered another quarter of solid earnings. For the Q2, we achieved a net profit of $213,300,000 bringing our net profit in the 1st 6 months to $469,900,000 This also notably brings Hafnier's total profit in the last 12 months to over $1,000,000,000 Amid this volatile quarter, we continue to optimize our balance sheet to reduce our leverage further. Our net LTV ratio continues the decreasing trend from 31.4% in Q1 to 30.1% in Q2. Through the sale of vessels and repayment of loans, though this was partly counterbalanced by the recent acquisition of vessels and the drawing down of poor working capital facility.

Speaker 3

As previously communicated, we have now implemented a despondent owner model for our larger pools being the LR2, LR1, MR and Handy pools. Hence, our balance sheet now includes all current working capital for these pools. That has increased our balance sheet by 261 point $3,000,000 on both assets and liabilities and has no cash impact. With that, I'm happy to announce also a dividend payout of 25.28 dollars per share or approximately NOK2.6 for the quarter. This represents a 60% dividend payout ratio of $128,000,000 in total, at a net LTV of 30.1%.

Speaker 3

We are getting close to reaching the next threshold for our dividends. As you may be aware, our payout ratio will increase from 60% to 70% once we are below the 30% net LTV threshold. This brings Hafneur's total dividends in the last four quarters to $581,000,000 representing a total payout ratio of 57.3 percent and further reinforcing our ability to sustain and deliver strong shareholder returns. Moving on to the next page. The 2nd quarter generated a TCE income of $349,300,000 and for the half year a TCE income of $726,500,000 Our fee focused business has also performed well again, generating $10,100,000 from our commercial pool and bunkering business.

Speaker 3

This all leading to an EBITDA of $261,600,000 The results also show an annualized return on equity of 40.1% for the quarter. Our balance sheet keeps adding strength quarter on quarter with a cash balance of $241,000,000 and a total liquidity of $480,000,000 when we add our credit lines. By the end of the quarter, 66.1% of our debt was hedged at a weighted average rate of 1.6 percent base rate. While we keep reducing our overall debt, this hedge position helps us in keeping financing costs as low as possible and be protected against major swings in interest rates. We will constantly monitor our key leverage ratios and breakeven levels to ensure that Hafnier's balance sheet remains resilient and enabling us to navigate challenges and seize opportunities while safeguarding the long term sustainability of our business.

Speaker 3

Moving on to the operating data. For the Q2, our TCE was based on 10,444 earning days, giving us an average PCE per day of $33,449 OpEx costs, which encompass vessel operational Costs and technical management expenses were based on 9,320 calendar days in the quarter, leading to an average of $7,728 per day, which is higher than the previous quarters. The rise in OpEx primarily stems from extra crew costs due to trading demands, unanticipated expenses for spares and services due to unforeseen system conditions and handover related costs for our sold vessels. Despite these strong markets, it's very important that we focus on our cost levels, and Hafnia has consistently set new benchmarks for the industry. We constantly benchmark our performance against our closest peers and operate the business at the most competitive levels.

Speaker 3

Then moving on to our earnings coverage. Despite a slight decline in rates as compared to previous quarters, rates are still very high, especially looking at historical rates for the Q2. Furthermore, market conditions are expected to be strong for the remainder of the year, mainly attributed to a strong rebound in oil demand and declining European product inventories. The need for the Western Hemisphere to replenish inventory levels will also represent significant ton mile gain And this historically will signal a high earning rate environment. As of the 23rd August 20 23, 78 percent of the total earnings gains in Q3 2023 were covered at an average of $27,616 per day.

Speaker 3

For the remainder of the year, so Q3 and Q4 of 2023, 46% of the total earnings were covered at an average of 27,100 and $2 per day. Then looking at the various scenarios on the next page, given the robust Underlying conditions within the product tanker market, our performance in the first half has been notably strong. We anticipate continued steady momentum in the second half of the year as we strive to strategically position ourselves to leverage on the freight market with our highest spot market exposure. This page presents A comparative analysis of 3 distinct scenarios concerning the company's potential earnings for the entire year. These scenarios encompass consensus forecast provided by the equity analysts, an extrapolation of the Q3 covered rate projected for the full year, and a third scenario based on the year to date figures extended through the entire year.

Speaker 3

Across all three scenarios, the indications suggest Yet another exceptionally robust year for Hafnia. Then Jens, why don't you take the next few pages on market?

Speaker 4

Thank you, Perry. The next few pages provide commercial updates and our expectations on the product tanker market looking forward. A year after Russia's invasion of Ukraine and subsequent embargo on Russian products, global oil markets have recalibrated. And since then, Market inefficiencies have been alleviated and trading patterns have settled. We're in the Q3 and are already seeing a sharp increase in daily loadings of CBP and Chemicals.

Speaker 4

August levels have already exceeded levels seen last year and are mirroring the same movements as we saw in 2022. We can expect daily loadings to further increase into the winter months. With a strong rebound in China's economy, we're expecting global oil demand to reach record levels in 2023. According to IEA, Global oil demand reached record levels in June at 103,000,000 barrels per day mainly attributed to solid Travel and Searching Chinese Petrochemical Activity. For the year, global oil demand is expected to increase by 2,200,000 barrels per day to an average of 102,200,000 barrels per day with China accounting for most of the growth.

Speaker 4

On the other hand, oil supply will see a slightly lower growth in 2023 expected to only increase by 1,500,000 barrels to £101,500,000 per day in total. This is despite the persistent production cuts from the OPEC plus block in Saudi Arabia, but most of the increase contributed from non OPEC and specifically the U. S. We can expect the freight market to remain strong on the back of this high global oil demand as we tend to see a high correlation between oil and water and freight rates. With this anticipated increase in oil demand and trade routes settling in, We can now see a proportionate increase in both tonniles and cargo volumes for both CPPs and dirty petroleum products, which includes crude oil compared to previous years.

Speaker 4

We can expect these high levels of tonne miles to continue as trading routes remain calibrated to accommodate for the dislocation between refinery production capacity and its end users. Storage levels are also a key indicator in signaling the tonne mile gain on the horizon. According to IEA, Despite OECD oil product stocks rising by 1,400,000 barrels in June, this overshadowed the large decline experienced in Europe, Which saw product levels decline by 16,600,000 barrels. The biggest drop occurred in middle distillates of 11,100,000 barrels While gasoline has dropped 2,000,000 barrels to 80,700,000 barrels, which is a record low level. European CPP imports are insufficient to meet demand, which would be leading to an increased slowdown of inventory levels.

Speaker 4

This represents a significant tonnile increase on the horizon. And historically, freight rates increased significantly during stock building as both cargo volumes and transportation distance increase. Moving on to the supply side. Tanker newbuild orders have picked up led by ordering appetite in the product tanker sector. The product tanker order book as a percentage of the fleet has also ticked up to 9.5% as of August.

Speaker 4

There will, however, be a long lead time before we see these deliveries materialize, which we anticipate most to be delivered in late 2025 through 2026. Looking at the age profile of vessels, We also expect scrapping levels to increase in the coming years. Furthermore, when we look at the number of yards in China, Japan, South Korea and Europe, they have dropped considerably since the level seen in the 2000s. Yards are already operating near full capacity, dominated largely by containers, bulgos and gas carriers. Increased emissions and efficiency targets will continue to put pressure on older vessels, accelerating the turnover of the global fleet and slowing vessel supply.

Speaker 4

We have already observed significant de facto scrapping for 18 vessels where you can see a significant reduction in ton mile utilization of vessel aged above 20 years compared to younger vessels and this disparity has increased in the more recent years. The fleet profile is also getting increasingly old. When we look at the number of vessels that are above 20 years old in 2023, That number is set to double by 2027. The market will benefit from an increase in scrapping and from a less efficient and generally over fleet profile. With these various interlacing factors, the outlook remains positive and we can expect product tanker fleet utilization to increase.

Speaker 4

This slide assumes a scrapping age of 25 years for MRs and handies and 23 years for LR2s, LR1s, We anticipate the tonnage supply balance to drop significantly from 2023 into 2024 due to the aging fleet profile and scrapping. Next slide. Apart from that, there's also a growing fleet trading Russian oil products. We estimate a fleet of approximately 6.40 MR equivalents Trading on Russia with a considerable portion being from blue chip refutable owners. Business operated by non blue chip owners are unlikely to return to international trade should sanctions be lifted at some point in the future.

Speaker 4

Moving on to the refining sector. The global refinery landscape is evolving with global refinery expansions of approximately £4,000,000 a day expected in 2023, mostly located in the Middle East and China Two mega refineries, Saudi Aramco's GISAN and KBC's Elsara refinery in Kuwait have been increasing production in the past months. Further expansion in capacity and ramp up of throughput is expected in the Middle East with a focus on the production of middle distillates. Refinery margins today also supersede 2022 levels following a spike in gasoline and diesel cracks. Refinery throughputs are set to peak in August at 83,900,000 barrels daily.

Speaker 4

Refiners are struggling to keep up with the growth in oil demand as shifts to new feedstocks, outages and high temperatures have forced them to run at reduced rates. Looking at the market cannibalization levels of VLCCs and sewer smacks, with only a handful of them left to be delivered for the remainder of the year and no newbuildings coming the next year. We do not expect a significant level of cannibalization, which will lead to a higher utilization of the existing product tanker fleet. Slide 22. Here in this slide, we're taking a stab at predicting what happens if sanctions on Russian oil are lifted.

Speaker 4

Our tonnage supply forecasts include the effects of new billings, scrapping and importantly, the reduced tonnage efficiency of the rapidly aging fleet. Our base case scenario is a reduction in fleet supply of 3.62 MRI equivalents by the end of 2024 compared to today. Looking further 2 years out, by the end of 2026, the fleet would have reduced by 3.37 MO equivalents, Even taking into consideration that we have included an additional 100 MR newbuilding equivalents on top of known orders as of today. So even if sanctions are lifted, the tanker market looks very promising for the foreseeable future as we have not even factored in any extra transportation demand coming from growth in oil demand throughout the years 2024, 25 and 26 in this slide. The aging fleet will in itself lead to a tight market even with zero growth in oil demand in transportation demand, which we consider unrealistic in the first place.

Speaker 4

Slide 23. When we apply a similar methodology to the Suezmax and VLCC segments, our base case scenario post sanctions looks promising for the large group tanker segments. Our base case predicts a reduction in tonnage supply of 135 Suezmax equivalents by the end of 20 24 And a slightly larger reduction of 139 by the end of 2026. And we're factoring 90 additional newbuilds over and above today's known order book. Again, this slide does not factor in growth in transportation demand at all.

Speaker 4

So in our view, the Product Tanker segment will be well supported by the Crude Tanker segment for the foreseeable future. And now Michael, over to you for the next couple of slides.

Speaker 2

Thank you. Slide 25. Moving on, I would like to touch upon Hafnia's ESG performance. As we navigate through the evolving maritime landscape, Hafner remains very committed to minimizing our environmental footprint, advocating for diversity and inclusion and to uphold high standards of corporate governance. The new growth that we have on order mark our commitment in the decarbonization journey.

Speaker 2

Apart from that, We're also working to reduce our environmental footprint in our current fleet through vessel optimization initiatives. In 2022, Across our own fleet, our carbon intensity was 5.25 grams per tonne nautical mile, which is 7.3% below the present IMO baseline. We very often partner with various industry peers, International organizations and other key stakeholders to collaboratively address challenges our sector faces. By aligning our intentions with our actions, we aim to demonstrate that excellent commercial performance and sustainability are not mutually exclusive, but rather they complement and reinforce one another. Next slide.

Speaker 2

Looking ahead, I'm optimistic that Hafne will continue to make the right steps in our commitment to a greener maritime sector and in leveraging our strategically positioned modern fleet. While the future remains volatile, I believe that Hafnia Our future proved itself and is very quick to face what is to come. We will continue to build on this strong momentum to produce even greater results. This will allow us to pursue our objectives, invest in a greener future and to also allow for greater shareholder returns. With that, I'd like to open up the call for questions.

Operator

We will begin our Q and A session now. Thank you to those who have their hands raised or have submitted their questions. For the sake of good order, we We will respond to the Q and A and chat questions first, then followed by the raised hand. In the meeting chat box, we have a question which reads, Hafnia only has a small percentage of LR2 trading dirty. At what point would you decide to switch from clean to dirty?

Speaker 4

Hi, Janne. This is Jens. Right now, we have 7 LR2 tankers in our pool and they're all trading keen. And We're not averse to trade our ships in dirty trades, but we evaluate each and every opportunity to switch very carefully before doing so. The cost of going from dirty back to clean can easily run into $0.75 to $1,000,000 So this is not something that we take lightly.

Operator

Okay. So if we move on to the Q and A function. We have a question that reads, you still have a number of 15 year old LR1 vessels in your fleet. Do you see these vessels remaining in your fleet? Or is there appetite to sell them?

Speaker 2

Thank you for that question. It's Michael. So we don't have any specific strategy that outlines that at a Specific age, we will sell ships. So but when they reach the 15 years of age, what we will do is take an individual look at the very vessels. And Part of our strategy is actually to try to extend the lifetime of a lot of our vessels because we feel that the markets are going to be strong for a number of years ahead.

Speaker 2

So it's more of an individual view on these ships rather than a generic approach to 15 years or not That will decide whether we will sell ships or not. But the likelihood is that as we go along that there will be few vessels now and then being sold and replaced by More modern ships, which will serve as a renewal of our fleet altogether.

Operator

We will move on now to the raised hand function. May I ask Erik Herwaldsen to unmute himself. Eric, can we ask you to unmute yourself to ask your question? Okay. I'll move on to the next question from Frode Morgadel.

Operator

If you could unmute yourself to ask your question.

Speaker 5

Yes. Can you hear

Operator

me? Yes.

Speaker 1

Perfect. Yes.

Speaker 5

Hi, guys. The first question I had is this topic of cannibalization you had in one of the slides Very briefly, you mentioned that, which is the phenomenon of basically crude tanker newbuilds taking Clean cargoes on the maiden voyage, right? So it's a good point with no order book to speak of for VLCCs. This should be very positive for product tankers, right? So do you have any idea what the potential impact could be?

Speaker 4

Yes. Hi, Thode. We haven't calculated on the potential impact, but Our records show that so far in 2023, the sewer smacks and VLCCs have been loading on average about 200,000 barrels a day of So what we're expecting is at that rate, those 200,000 barrels will be traveling to a much greater extent on coated product tankers. When When we get into 2024 and there will be fewer newbuildings on the Suezmax and VLCC side. But an exact number, we haven't done that calculation.

Speaker 4

But it's a fair volume, as you point out.

Speaker 5

Yes, exactly. Should be definitely positive, I think. But anyway, second question I had is on this new build with methanol capability. Is the use of methanol something that the charter requested or is something that you have a special belief in?

Speaker 4

Hi, Frode. This is Jens again. And this is a project that It came out of our discussion between ourselves and our long term partners Total. And I'd rather not go into the details of exactly how did the project start, We're very proud of it. Thank you.

Speaker 5

Yes. Okay. This is more about the fuel Transition and the use of methanol as a dual fuel, if that's something that you have a Strong belief in, I guess you have some LNG dual fuel in the fleet. That was the Great question to answer.

Speaker 2

Well, I think, Fotter, I can maybe add to it that I mean, obviously, from our point of view, one thing is obviously what the clients have a requirement. But of course, for us, it's also a strategic A test of kind of how it works with dual fuel methanol. Yes, we do believe that methanol will be one of the solutions. We don't necessarily feel that there will be one solution in the future. There will be more.

Speaker 2

So you can say it's a good match for us to Invest at the same time as we guarantee earnings and guarantee returns. So what we will not do, for instance, when it comes to these dual fuel And IMO 2 carriers in general is to order them on spot basis. So everything we've done that kind of in a way goes down the path of having a dual fuel Propulsion is all based on covered contract that gives us a guaranteed yield. So that's the way we want to step forward on that, not by taking speculative orders into that space.

Speaker 5

That makes sense. It may be coincidental then, but it seems that you've been gearing up on this chemical tanker In these 2 newbuilds with methanol, but also you have the LO1, you bought from Adfjall and a few other newbuilds, right? So Maybe you can talk about attractiveness of IMO2 and more broadly the chemical tankers, The ability to carry chemicals and vegetable oils for your fleet.

Speaker 4

Hi, Thore. If we go back to the business case that we built around the time when we acquired CTI, We fundamentally felt that the IMO 2 space offers a long and attractive runway. And we thought it was a good supplement to our existing fleet where we could utilize the synergies between CPP and the IMO 2, Yes, in the 2, 3 space. That's worked out well for us and that's why we've chosen to invest more 1 year.

Operator

So we have another raised hand from Erik Hovi. May I ask you to take yourself off mute?

Speaker 6

Hi, guys. Just a question regarding a bit of the booking and if it's sort of any If there's been more in normal operations or more a strategy into that, so comparing the coverage rates, So obviously for Q3 and Q4, which are also provided in the report, it seems to have taken on some more Coverage or into the other ones for the 3rd and the 4th quarter, is that more type of normal operations that you see that there are longer term Time charters that you take on? Or is that sort of a hedge into the winter? Or how would you say you're positioning your lead towards what you seem to believe is a very strong winter market?

Speaker 4

Yes. Hi, Erik. We have not taken on any long term charters on our spot trading fleet Since we last spoke, we concluded the 2 MR methanol charters. We have quite a strong belief in the winter market that's ahead of us. So the coverage we have going into Q4 is the coverage from our existing long term charters and then its coverage from longer spot voyages that register into Q4?

Speaker 4

Yes. So you still will say you're fairly

Speaker 6

but you have also Not taking any sort of trying to be more open into the winter. It's more with the fleet size you have, I guess it's more About having normal operations more than positioning yourself into potential peaks in the market. The spot market Has been very volatile over the last over this year basically. So I guess there is a lot of timing also involved with sort of getting higher rates. So I just wonder if you have any like strategy or thoughts or if that's something you plan for as well?

Speaker 4

Our expectation is that the winter market will be strong. Stocks are low all over the world and the oil market is tight and refinery margins Tight. So we can only really see volumes and shipping demand growing. So we have not been seeking to cover any of our days A swing out of the winter in anticipation of a strong winter. So we are as spot exposed as we can be.

Operator

Okay. So we have another question in the chat. Do you see a threat for ships currently trading Russian crude getting pushed back into the mainstream market if product prices breach the caps? And do you see this happening already or not yet?

Speaker 4

Hi. This is a it's a good question. We've seen Aframax's trading rush include oil that are now entering the mainstream market. And I think that's had a negative effect on Aframax earnings in Europe And to a greater extent, the entire Atlantic basin compared to where that basin was before the oil price moved above the price cap. The question, I guess, is also what kind of development could we see on the product space if diesel and Naphtha prices moves above The price cap and they're hovering just around it right now.

Speaker 4

Our expectation is that they will have really a limited effect in the sense that if the price stays above For a while ships will be sold to trade on Russia. And if the price moves Below again the international fleet will get busy in carrying oil under the price cap. So all in all we think Fundamentally, demand will remain intact.

Operator

Okay. We have another raised hand from Omar Nokhtar. May I ask you to take yourself off mute, Please.

Speaker 1

Hi there. Thank you. Just wanted to ask about Your LTV and obviously you guys have paid very close attention to the balance sheet and you ended the quarter at 30.1% On a net LTV basis and that compares to 55% a year ago, so it's come down quite a bit. Do you think based on what you're seeing so far It should be able to get below that 30% threshold by the end of this coming quarter and then thus put you in the next payout threshold of 70%.

Speaker 3

Hi, Omar. It's Perry here. Good question, and I'll answer this together with the question that Eirik posted in the chat box. Yes. So, only 9 months ago after the Q3, we introduced a new dividend payout policy with the Structure where as net LTV drops, the payout ratio will go up.

Speaker 3

It has indeed dropped quite significantly over time towards The 30.1% that we saw at the end of the quarter, in line with markets and values and cash flows going It, of course, only needs a little bit of a tweak to get below that 30%. So we're definitely on track to get there next quarter. In terms of Eirik's question regarding net debt levels, we don't have A target per se of where we want to be. Obviously, the higher the payout ratio, the lower the The base of the debt reduction, we're more focused on cash flow breakevens. As we indicated earlier this year, we want to get back to that Cash flow breakeven in the mid-13s, which we are well on track of to get there in a few quarters' time.

Speaker 3

So that is Mainly the reason we think in an asset intensive company like ours, that has a good place to get the right returns on capital. So No specific minimum levels on that, but of course, as the market progresses, we'll keep there an eye on that.

Speaker 1

Okay. Thank you, Barry, for that. That was good color. And maybe just one quick follow-up just in relation to the MR newbuildings. I know you don't want to give too much, I guess, specifics on it, but any sense you can give us or any color on The duration of what that long term charter looks like with Total and then perhaps what kind of unlevered IRR you're expecting from the project?

Speaker 3

I think the answer, Mike, in terms of duration of the Contracts, we haven't disclosed much of that neither on the IRRs.

Speaker 1

Okay. I figured I'd ask.

Speaker 2

Exactly. I mean, all we can say is that it is a longer term charter, right, which essentially means that It's more than 5 years.

Speaker 1

Okay. In excess of 5 years, that's helpful enough. Thank you.

Operator

So going back to the chat box, we have a question from Oostein saying, considering the limited amount of and be deals out there such as the methanol ships you just ordered, are you considering more scrubber investments?

Speaker 2

Thank you for that. It's Michael here. No, those two things for us are actually not interlinked. Scrubbers as such are not really Helping on much other than on the sulfur side. So for us, when it comes to scrubbers, we were never convinced about the scrubber solutions For ships that are below LR1 size, we felt that the payback time was too long.

Speaker 2

And the access to high sulfur fuel oil that you need For smaller vessels, which travel basically worldwide and have so many bunkering ports where you wouldn't find availability, just didn't make any sense. And quite frankly, when you look at the spread that most people order their scrubbers on the back of back in 2020, 2019, 2020 and look at how it actually developed, The spread has been significantly below that. So the payback time has probably been even longer. So we have a few scrubbers on LR2s and a few LR1s, but it's not an area that we're looking strategically to increase investment of scrubbers at all.

Operator

We have another question from Nick on how much additional investment is required to make your newbuilds able to use methanol after if they are delivered?

Speaker 2

Thank you for that. And it's actually a good question because we see a lot of orders around Being reported as being so called ready, whether that is for methanol, LNG or other things. In our case, These vessels do not require any further investments. So when these ships deliver, they are fully able to burn methanol from day 1.

Operator

Thank you. And on to the last question from Fianna. We have the order book has increased, mainly LR2s have been ordered. I'm just wondering to what extent these will all be used for the clean trade. As the dirty order is so low, the LR2 seems to be the arbitrage play between clean and dirty.

Operator

Do you expect a decent percentage to be used for the dirty trade?

Speaker 4

Yes. Hi, Jens. This is Jens. This is a good question. And yes, we do expect that a decent percentage of the newbuildings in the LR2 2 segment will be used in dirty trades.

Speaker 4

Already today, a number of quoted Aframaxes LR LR2s are trading dirty.

Operator

So we would be coming to the end of today's presentation. Thank you for attending near Q2 2023 financial results presentation. More information on Hafneer is available online at www. Hafneabw.com. Thank you, everyone, and goodbye.

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Earnings Conference Call
Hafnia Q2 2023
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