NYSE:GSBD Goldman Sachs BDC Q4 2023 Earnings Report $10.77 +0.10 (+0.94%) As of 03:59 PM Eastern Earnings HistoryForecast Goldman Sachs BDC EPS ResultsActual EPS$0.55Consensus EPS $0.57Beat/MissMissed by -$0.02One Year Ago EPSN/AGoldman Sachs BDC Revenue ResultsActual Revenue$115.40 millionExpected Revenue$117.09 millionBeat/MissMissed by -$1.69 millionYoY Revenue GrowthN/AGoldman Sachs BDC Announcement DetailsQuarterQ4 2023Date2/28/2024TimeN/AConference Call DateThursday, February 29, 2024Conference Call Time9:00AM ETUpcoming EarningsGoldman Sachs BDC's Q1 2025 earnings is scheduled for Thursday, May 8, 2025, with a conference call scheduled on Friday, May 9, 2025 at 9:00 AM ET. Check back for transcripts, audio, and key financial metrics as they become available.Conference Call ResourcesConference Call AudioConference Call TranscriptSlide DeckPress Release (8-K)Annual Report (10-K)Earnings HistoryCompany ProfileSlide DeckFull Screen Slide DeckPowered by Goldman Sachs BDC Q4 2023 Earnings Call TranscriptProvided by QuartrFebruary 29, 2024 ShareLink copied to clipboard.There are 9 speakers on the call. Operator00:00:00Good morning. This is Austin Neary, a member of the Investor Relations team for Goldman Sachs BDC, Inc. And I would like to welcome everyone to the Goldman Sachs BDC Inc. Q4 2023 earnings conference call. Please note that all participants will be in listen only mode until the end of the call when we will open up Speaker 100:00:16the line for questions. Before we Operator00:00:18begin today's call, I would like to remind our listeners that today's remarks may include forward looking statements. These statements represent the company's belief regarding future events that, by their nature, are uncertain and outside of the company's control. The company's actual results and financial condition may differ, possibly materially, from what is indicated in those forward looking statements as a result of a number of factors, including those described from time to time in the company's SEC filings. This audiocast is copyrighted material of Goldman Sachs BDC, Inc. And may not be duplicated, reproduced or rebroadcast without our consent. Operator00:00:52Yesterday, after the market closed, the company issued an earnings press release and posted a supplemental earnings presentation, both of which can be found on the homepage of our website at www.colemansachsbdc dotcom under the Investor Resources section and which includes reconciliations of non GAAP measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures. These documents should be reviewed in conjunction with the company's annual report on Form 10 ks filed yesterday with the SEC. This conference call is being recorded today, Thursday, February 29, 2024 for replay purposes. I'll now turn the call over to Alex Chi, Co Chief Executive Officer of Goldman Sachs BDC Inc. Speaker 200:01:34Thank you, Austin. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our 4th quarter and 2023 fiscal year end earnings conference call. I'm here today with David Miller, our Co Chief Executive Officer Tucker Green, our Chief Operating Officer and Stan Nieczewski, our Chief Financial Officer. I'll begin the call by providing an on the Goldman Sachs Private Credit platform before providing a brief overview of our Q4 results and then discuss the current market environment in more detail. I'll then turn the call over to David and Tucker to describe our portfolio activity and performance before handing it off to Stan to take us through our financial results. Speaker 200:02:12And then finally, we'll open the line for Q and A. So with that, I'd like to provide a brief update of the Goldman Sachs Private Credit platform and the positive impact on GSBD of being part of it. We're proud to announce that next week marks the 2nd anniversary of our platform integration process. This endeavor brought all of Goldman Sachs' private credit origination and underwriting capabilities as well as various pools of capital with track records that stretch back over 28 years under a single roof within our asset management business. As you may recall, historically, our BDC complex, including GSBD, operated as a separate and distinct platform on the public side of the house that was walled off from the rest of the firm and could not take full advantage of being part of the Goldman Sachs ecosystem. Speaker 200:03:02In these 2 short years, GSBD has been able to take advantage of the full origination capabilities of the broader private credit platform and its scale, enhance our infrastructure and improve upon our underwriting capabilities. I'd like to highlight a few examples. Amidst the volatile market and muted deal environment, the Goldman Sachs private credit platform remained active, deploying $12,000,000,000 in 2023. The Direct Lending Americas platform comprised the majority of the activity with over $6,000,000,000 deployed. Furthermore, taking advantage of the broader scale and origination capabilities, GSPD served as agent or lead lender on well above the majority of its new deals in 2023. Speaker 200:03:482nd, the team has spent the past 2 years actively upgrading GSPD's portfolio quality. As a point of reference, in the Q4 of 2021, just prior to the integration, GSPD had 89.3% at fair value in 1st lien senior secured loans, whereas as of the Q4 of 2023, that figure stood at 95.3% at fair value. At the same time, in the Q4 of 2021, 2nd lien loans comprised 8.2% of the portfolio at fair value versus the Q4 of 2023, where 2nd liens made up only 1.9% at fair value. This is a result of actions we discussed in previous quarters, whereby repayments and junior lien positions have allowed us to redeploy capital into attractive opportunities higher up in the capital structure, and we proactively took marks on legacy junior positions. Finally, our integration has allowed for the significant expansion of our overall deal funnel to provide more proprietary and unique direct lending opportunities for GSBD. Speaker 200:04:56For example, since 2004, Goldman Sachs Private Credit has been the leading lender in the middle market wireless power sector, deploying close to $7,000,000,000 of capital with no losses to date. During the quarter, the Goldman Sachs BioCredit platform served as a leader ranger on a senior secured facility to Skyway. Founded in 2005, Skyway is a Florida based wireless tower operator with 445 towers in its portfolio. The facility continues a long standing Goldman Sachs relationship with the Skyway team, which began with the financing of the Skyway's first portfolio in 2011 before its sale to American Tower, followed by the financing of multiple subsequent tower portfolios, including the current one. This is but one example of a new set of investment opportunities made available to GDSPD resulting from our integration efforts. Speaker 200:05:50Harrington is another example of an investment in the quarter where GDSBD utilized the scale of the broader senior direct lending platform to provide a commitment for the entire facility that allowed the sponsor to win the asset, and we served as lead arranger. Harrington is a California based specialty distributor of precision fluid control products across a variety of industry sectors. We are proud that we've been able to capitalize on the thesis that we communicated to our shareholders and lenders when we integrated GSPD, and we remain committed to leveraging the broader private credit platform for the benefit of GSPD shareholders in the quarters and years ahead. As we announced after the market close yesterday, our Board declared a Q1 of $0.45 per share dividend payable to shareholders of record as of March 28, 2024. This marks the company's 36th consecutive quarter of a $0.45 per share dividend totaling $16.20 per share since our IPO, excluding the special dividends we paid in 2021 post the merger with MMLC. Speaker 200:06:56Net asset value was $14.62 per share as of December 31, 2023. Increase was primarily attributable to net investment income exceeding our quarterly dividend, partially offset by net realized and unrealized losses for the quarter. We had previously expressed confidence that deal volumes would increase as the year progressed and the trend indeed continued in the Q4 as it did in the Q3. During the Q4, we reviewed more than 150 investment opportunities across our Direct Lending Americas platform and deployed capital at strong levels as David will expand upon in a bit. While we acknowledge that recent deal volumes have improved from recent lows in the past several quarters, we've also witnessed greater competition in the direct lending space, resulting in spread tightening over the past several months. Speaker 200:07:47We anticipate that as the overall deal environment improves, supply demand for private credit will align to support spread premiums and title lending terms in line with historical private credit underwriting experience. At the same time, it's worth considering that while the broadly syndicated loan market has also reopened, although primarily for near term refinancings, this is a dynamic that's more impactful to the upper middle market to larger cap segments, whereas GSPD is more focused on the core of the middle market. With that, let me turn it over to my Co CEO, David Miller. Speaker 300:08:22Thanks, Alex. During the quarter, we originated $166,200,000 in new investment commitments to 14 new and 4 existing portfolio companies. Sales and repayment activity totaled $224,000,000 primarily driven by the full repayment and exit of investments in 7 portfolio companies. In particular, as we continue to upgrade the quality of the portfolio, we are pleased with the full repayment of 1 junior lien position and exit of 2 equity positions, which will allow us to continue redeploying capital into new 1st lien oriented opportunities. Turning to portfolio composition. Speaker 300:09:04As of December 31, 2023, total investments in our portfolio were $3,400,000,000 at fair value, comprised of 97.2 percent in senior secured loans, including 91.1 percent 1st lien, 4.2% in 1st lien last out unit tranche and 1.9% in 2nd lien debt, as well as the negligible amount in unsecured debt and 2% in a combination of preferred and common stock and warrants. As of quarter end, the company held investments in 144 portfolio companies operating across 38 different industries. The weighted average yield of our investment portfolio at cost at the end of Q4 was 11.8% as compared to 11.6% from the prior quarter. The weighted average yield of our total debt and income producing investments at amortized cost remained at 12.6% at the end of Q4. I will now turn the call over to Tucker Green to discuss our overall credit quality. Operator00:10:10Thank you, David. The weighted average net debt to EBITDA of the companies in our investment portfolio increased to 6.1 times from 5.9 times during the Q3. This increase is primarily attributable to a single position that had a dip in EBITDA, which we believe is one time in nature. Excluding this one time move, weighted average net debt to EBITDA would have been 5.9 times. Importantly, our portfolio companies have both top line growth and EBITDA growth year over year on a weighted average basis. Operator00:10:40The weighted average interest coverage of the companies in our investment portfolio at quarter end remained flat at 1.5x as SOFR rates decreased very slightly for the quarter. We continue to monitor interest coverage sensitivity at underwrite for new investments and for each name in the portfolio. The underlying borrower's EBITDA growth combined with lower rate increases has provided stability to the coverage ratio. And finally, turning to asset quality. As of December 31, 2023, 1 portfolio company was placed on nonaccrual status, LCG Vardaman Block LLC, also known as Specialty Dental, a 1st lien position representing less than 1% of fair value. Operator00:11:23Further, certain investments in 3 portfolio companies were removed from non accrual, 2 of which were due to repayment and 1 due to improvement in performance. As of December 31, 2023, investments on non accrual status remained consistent at 2.3% of the total investment portfolio at fair value compared to 2.3% as of September 30, 2023 and decreased to 3.8% of the total investment portfolio at amortized cost from 4.2% as of September 30, 2023. With respect to underperforming credits in the portfolio, it is worth noting that our upgraded platform also includes embedded workout resources and expertise to address the aforementioned underperforming credits that were predominantly originated prior to the integration. Of note, our restructuring team currently has an average of industry workout experience. I will now turn the call over to Stan Matuszewski to walk through our financial results. Speaker 100:12:23Thank you, Tucker. We ended the Q4 of 2023 with total portfolio investments at fair value of $3,400,000,000 Speaker 200:12:31outstanding debt Speaker 100:12:31of $1,800,000,000 and net assets of $1,600,000,000 Our ending net debt to equity ratio as of the end of Q4 was 1.11x, which continues to be below our target leverage of 1.25x. At quarter end, approximately 47% of company's total principal amount of debt outstanding was in unsecured debt, and we had $724,000,000 of capacity available under our secured revolving credit facility. As previously mentioned, during the quarter, we executed an extension of the maturity of our secured revolving credit facility from May 2027 to October 2028. As a reminder, we have 2 separate unsecured notes due February 2025 and January 2026, respectively. As we mentioned on last quarter's call, we plan to address these maturities at the appropriate time. Speaker 100:13:23Before continuing to the income statement, as a reminder, in addition to GAAP financial measures, we will also reference certain non GAAP or adjusted measures. This is intended to make the company's financial results easier to compare to results prior to our October 2020 merger with MMLC. These non GAAP measures remove the purchase discount amortization impact from our financial results. For Q4, GAAP and adjusted after tax net investment income $61,800,000 $60,700,000 respectively, as compared to $72,900,000 $69,700,000 respectively, in the prior quarter. On a per share basis, GAAP net investment income was 0 point asset acquisition accounting in connection with the merger with MMLC, adjusted net investment income for the quarter was $0.55 per share, equating to an annualized net investment income yield on book value of 15%. Speaker 100:14:22Importantly, we would note that while total investment income declined between the 3rd and 4th quarters, the decline was driven by lower non recurring investment income resulting from a decrease in repayment related activity despite an increase in recurring investment income. Finally, the PIK percentage of our total investment income decreased slightly quarter over quarter and is only slightly up year over year, remaining in the single digits. Distributions during the quarter remained consistent at $0.45 per share. Our spillover taxable income is approximately $118,000,000 or $1.08 per share on a per share basis, which we believe provides continued stability on our consistent dividend since inception. As Alex mentioned, net asset value per share on December 31, 2023 was $14.62 as compared to $14.61 last quarter. Speaker 100:15:20With that, I'll turn it back to Alex for closing remarks. Speaker 200:15:23Thanks, Dan, and thanks, everyone, for joining our earnings call. We remain optimistic about the performance of our portfolio, the current environment and outlook for deployment into attractive opportunities. With that, let's open the line for Q and A. Speaker 400:15:54We'll go first to Finian O'Shea with Wells Fargo Securities. Speaker 500:16:01Hey, everyone. Good morning. Alex, we were interested on some of your earlier comments on the private credits integration in G and A. Speaker 200:16:13Ray, could you open the line for Q and A please? Speaker 400:16:20The line is open, sir. Speaker 300:16:23Hi. Can you hear me? Speaker 200:16:28Can you hear me? Speaker 400:16:29I can hear you, sir. Speaker 200:16:32Alex? Speaker 500:16:40I can't hear the Goldman team. Operator? Speaker 400:16:44Yes, I am here. Can you hear me? Speaker 500:16:48I can. It's Fin. Okay. Can anyone hear me? Speaker 400:17:07This is operator. Yes, I can hear you, Mr. O'Shea. Speaker 300:17:10But can the team hear me? Speaker 400:17:14It appears not. Give me just a moment. Speaker 500:17:51I don't think I'm muted. Speaker 400:17:53You are not, sir. Speaker 500:17:55Okay. Speaker 200:19:18I dial in from the phone. Speaker 500:19:20Hello, I can hear you now. Speaker 200:19:22Hello. It's the thing you turned Speaker 400:19:23We can hear you Speaker 500:19:26now. All right. Speaker 200:19:28Can you hear us? Speaker 500:19:31Yes. We can Speaker 400:19:32hear you now. Speaker 200:19:32Can you hear us? Speaker 500:19:34All right. All Speaker 200:19:34right. Why don't we start over? Sorry about that. We are experiencing technical difficulties here. Speaker 600:19:42Okay. Speaker 500:19:48Thanks for having me on and we will start the Q and A. So Alex, we were interested in some of your initial comments on the integration. There are historically 3 credit franchises with distinct strategies. So does this mean it's all collapsed into one strategy now or is there or else like what's new about the way the platform works? Speaker 200:20:21That's a good question. And again, it's all part of one platform now. And to your point, just for historical reasons, we had 3 different arms of Goldman Sachs that were in the private credit direct lending business. And then 2 years ago, we brought it all together. With respect to the various vehicles that we have, they continue to pursue their own distinct strategies. Speaker 200:20:44So for example, we have other pockets of capital that are in the large cap senior drug lending space, and that continues. GSBD has and will continue to focus on the core middle market. And then we have other pockets of capital that focus on NES, on hybrid special sits, etcetera. And so it all brings it together. It's all on the private side here at Goldman. Speaker 200:21:07And so it just allows us to take advantage of the broader ecosystem, as I mentioned, where we can get the full benefit of all the sourcing and origination and the army of bankers that we have talking to companies and sponsors every single day. And it just brings the full weight of the firm and it just allows us to have a wide funnel as we've talked about, proprietary deals and the benefit of just really strong due diligence. At the same time, it's one team. So we don't have 3 different teams. So in the U. Speaker 200:21:40S, we have about 80 investment professionals, and they're all focused on origination and core underwriting. And then when we source a deal, an investment, we know exactly where it's going to go based upon the various vehicles and the strategies that we have. So we just want to be a direct lending solutions provider to our borrowing clients. Speaker 500:22:00Sure. How much like within the other strategies, what's the benefit of like a core middle market deal? How much more capital do you have to say lead a deal or drive terms and all of the above, like what helps the go ahead, sure. Speaker 200:22:28No, it's a great question. So first of all, what we couldn't do before was if the large cap pocket of the firm originated a deal that was call it core GSBD focus area $59 of EBITDA, It was just it was too small for the large cap. We could not refer it to GSPD just even if we wanted to, just weren't allowed to. So when we obviously collapsed it, GSPD now gets the benefit of that origination. On top of that, as we've also talked about, GSPD has its own vehicle, has its capital, as you know. Speaker 200:23:06But when we're in an increasingly competitive environment where scale matters, For example, the Harrington deal that I just talked about, we have other pockets of capital that can speak for that deal in its entirety. So that allowed us as a platform to go to that sponsor and say we can underwrite the entire deal, give you a commitment for the entire financing so you can go win that sell side auction. And that's exactly what we did. GSPD got an allocation to that. And so that's how we go to market now. Speaker 500:23:38Okay. So if I combine if I take this, you can do larger deals and I think you were in the commentary you also flagged like the non accrual as a pre integration credit. Does this mean you're going to move up in EBITDA in a meaningful way? Speaker 200:24:01Look, that's something we could explore at some point in the future. But as I mentioned, in terms of the criteria for the size that we stuck to for GSPD, it's really up to businesses with EBITDA of up to $200,000,000 And so that's why you just really haven't seen the EBITDA move up meaningfully. It ticked up a little bit in the Q4, but it's still in or around the $50,000,000 $55,000,000 EBITDA range for the portfolio within GSPD. We have other pockets of capital that can pursue large cap as well as mid market at the same time. GSPD is just we'll always be focused on we'll continue to be focused on middle market. Speaker 500:24:44Okay. That's helpful. And last one for me on this thread. The other two groups historically sourced origination from the investment bank, sponsor coverage, leverage finance, etcetera. Is that going to bring the BDC franchise, does that come into that fold? Speaker 500:25:07Are we now going to source from the investment bank? Speaker 200:25:14So, first of all, appreciate that it's certainly an advantage to have the investment bank there originating investment opportunities for us. But still, the vast majority of the deals that we've originated are really directly off the platform. Having said that, we get a tremendous amount of referrals that come in from Investment Banking, from Private Wealth that cover the largest family owned enterprises in the world. If you look at just over the course of the year, where we have the full year of the benefit of integration, roughly about a third of new deals that we did within GSPD came from this one Goldman Sachs advantage, as we'll talk about. So we're not certainly relying upon Investment Banking to source for us, but it certainly provides additional flow and allows us to be a lot more selective about what we choose to do. Speaker 200:26:08Awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks, Sven. Speaker 400:26:14We'll go next to Arren Cyganovich with Citi. Speaker 700:26:19Thanks. I think you mentioned in your prepared remarks that you're seeing kind of activity or expecting activity to pick up in expectations for spread to tighten? Are you seeing from a competitive standpoint banks reentering into lending or is this still primarily just the direct lenders that you're competing with? Speaker 200:26:47We're certainly seeing the BSO market reopening. We have our own leveraged finance department within banking that's certainly active. But what we're also seeing is that that's really a large cap phenomena. We have our own large cap vehicles and we're certainly seeing additional competitive pressure from that standpoint in addition to the large amount of private capital that's just been raised overall. But we had not seen banks really get back into the core middle market, which is where GSPD plays. Speaker 200:27:19So although we have seen a bit of spread compression over the course of the year and quarter over quarter, it has not been the magnitude of what we've seen on the large cap side of the business. Speaker 700:27:34Okay. And then you had mentioned that you had, I think, one company had a dip in EBITDA. But from a broader perspective in your portfolio companies, are you seeing continued EBITDA growth? Or is that starting to slow or something? Speaker 200:27:53We're certainly seeing continued EBITDA growth. So if you look at the 4th quarter on an LTM basis, our top line for the portfolio grew on a weighted average basis about 16.5%. And on an EBITDA basis, it grew about 7.5%. But what's also interesting is if you look at EBITDA margins quarter over quarter, we're certainly seeing how our portfolio companies are passing along price increases to their customers. So EBITDA margin has actually expanded about 130 basis points in the 4th quarter over the 3rd. Speaker 200:28:23So we are really happy to see that. Speaker 700:28:27That's helpful. Thank you. Speaker 400:28:31Thank you. We'll go next to Mark Hughes with Truist. Speaker 600:28:37Yes. Thank you. Good morning. Just looking at your spread of ratings, just looking at the percentage of the portfolio, kind of the 1 through 4, little bit of movement in there, still high quality, but a little bit of erosion. Is that kind of the higher for longer just interest coverage issue? Speaker 600:29:05What would account for the little bit of movement? And then do you think that's kind of hit its worst? Is it should it stabilize from here given the interest rate environment, given the economy? How do you see that? Speaker 200:29:27I think with respect to the portfolio, there might be some movements from name to name. But in terms of the overall quality of the portfolio, we really haven't seen much movement. It's actually quite stable. As you saw, we moved one name Rating 2 to Rating 3, and we took a mark on that particular position. But we also moved a number of names off of non accrual as well. Speaker 200:29:54As we exited those investments, 2 of them and another one actually we put back on accrual, which is based upon good performance. So I wouldn't call out anything idiosyncratic about our portfolio. It's just really quarter over quarter just based upon the dynamics that we've talked about. Speaker 600:30:12Understood. And then on your net investment activity, it sounds like more opportunities that you're looking at. You've had some decent repayment activity here lately. How do you think that's going to shake out in the near term? Is it still kind of a push or when do you start to get ahead of that? Speaker 200:30:35Look, in terms of activity, we remain quite optimistic about the second half of this year. Lots of different factors, which I'm sure you've heard of from us as well as other managers in the space. But private credit continues to be driven really by private equity activity, leverage buyouts, add on activity. It's well known just the sheer amount of dry powder that's out there. In addition, there is a significant amount of full company that are owned by private equity firms that really just have to be monetized. Speaker 200:31:10I believe last year was the 2nd lowest amount of distributions from private equity firms to their LPs in a quarter century. So in order for private equity firms to really raise the next fund, they're going to have to distribute capital. So at the same time, just going back to Fin's question, we have the benefit of speaking with our investment bankers who sell many companies to private equity firms. And they will tell us that the backlog of companies that they've been mandated to sell just continues to sit at near record levels. So for all those reasons, we remain optimistic. Speaker 200:31:51If rates do start to come down later in the year, that should signal more confidence. And so that will also just open the floodgates a bit more on M and A activity, and we will get our share of that. Speaker 700:32:08Thank you. Speaker 200:32:10Thank you. We'll go Speaker 400:32:16to our next question from Robert Dodd with Raymond James. Speaker 800:32:23On the repayment activity in the quarter, Richard, that was pretty significantly, but the repayment fees accelerated LID, etcetera, were down. Was that just coincidental? Or was there any effort by you to, I don't want to put it, encourage some of the older assets, which is Pablo, I have no idea, to migrate out of the portfolio? I mean, is this a part of the rotation or just coincidence? Speaker 100:32:55Hi, Robert. Yes, it's just coincidence. I'd say last quarter, we had some investments that exited that were some larger investments with Some deals that had come over in the MMLC merger that had large unamortized balances and that was really what was kind of driving up that nonrecurring income last quarter. We did still see some accelerated amortization and repayment related interest income this quarter, but it just wasn't coincidentally, with the handful of investments last quarter with the larger balances on amortized. Speaker 800:33:34Got it. Got it. Thank you. On leverage, I mean, you are below target right now. I mean, obviously, with rates where they are, you don't need to be pushing the envelope on the leverage to produce earnings while in excess of the dividend, right? Speaker 800:33:51So is that should we expect leverage to ramp up rapidly or is it going to be relatively rapid, depending on the market and activity? Or is the intent to ramp it up a little slower, as maybe as rates come down as kind of an off term factor? Speaker 200:34:13Hey, Robert, it's David. No, I think you'll Speaker 300:34:14see us take that up slightly. I don't think you're going see a rapid increase. As you know, it's 1.25 is our target leverage. So I think you'll see us in future quarters probably approach that level, but it's going to bounce around up and down a little bit from our target level depending on activity in the portfolio. Speaker 800:34:33Got it. Thank you. And then on the last one for me, on the unsecured side, obviously, you don't have maturities until '25, 'twenty six. But would you be looking to potentially come to market if that opens up in maybe this year to increase your unsecured mix or pre fund the 25s? And how about that? Speaker 800:34:55If you did, would you be looking to do that at fixed rate or what? It would be fixed rate, but would you be looking to swap that to manage the exposure to late differentials? Or are you going to stay with historic pattern of unsecured space fixed? Speaker 300:35:18Yes. I mean, look, we're actively monitoring the market. As you pointed out, we have some 2025 maturities. So I think you'll see us address those at the right time. As far as fixed versus floating, we're going to evaluate that at time based on where the curve is and what's most beneficial to our investors depending on when we execute a transaction. Speaker 800:35:40Okay. Thank you. Speaker 400:35:45There are no other questions at this time. This does conclude today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.Read morePowered by Conference Call Audio Live Call not available Earnings Conference CallGoldman Sachs BDC Q4 202300:00 / 00:00Speed:1x1.25x1.5x2x Earnings DocumentsSlide DeckPress Release(8-K)Annual report(10-K) Goldman Sachs BDC Earnings HeadlinesGoldman Sachs BDC, Inc. Schedules Earnings Release and Conference Call to Announce First Quarter 2025 ResultsApril 8, 2025 | tmcnet.comGoldman Sachs BDC: Huge Dividend Yield, Yet Mediocre Overall ChoiceMarch 11, 2025 | seekingalpha.comTop Picks for Trump’s Pro-Crypto AmericaJust Announced: What Trump’s Move Means for Crypto—Join Now 27 top names reveal urgent insights as Bitcoin reboundsApril 24, 2025 | Crypto 101 Media (Ad)Goldman Sachs BDC (GSBD) Q4 2024 Earnings Call TranscriptFebruary 28, 2025 | seekingalpha.comGoldman Sachs BDC, Inc. Reports December 31, 2024 Financial Results and Announces Quarterly Dividend of $0.32 Per ShareFebruary 27, 2025 | businesswire.com5 Red-Hot Ultra-High-Yield Stocks Run by Famous Wall Street Investment GiantsFebruary 19, 2025 | 247wallst.comSee More Goldman Sachs BDC Headlines Get Earnings Announcements in your inboxWant to stay updated on the latest earnings announcements and upcoming reports for companies like Goldman Sachs BDC? Sign up for Earnings360's daily newsletter to receive timely earnings updates on Goldman Sachs BDC and other key companies, straight to your email. Email Address About Goldman Sachs BDCGoldman Sachs BDC (NYSE:GSBD) is a business development company specializing in middle market and mezzanine investment in private companies. It seeks to make capital appreciation through direct originations of secured debt, senior secured debt, junior secured debt, including first lien, first lien/last-out unitranche and second lien debt, unsecured debt, including mezzanine debt and, to a lesser extent, investments in equities. The fund primarily invests in United States. 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There are 9 speakers on the call. Operator00:00:00Good morning. This is Austin Neary, a member of the Investor Relations team for Goldman Sachs BDC, Inc. And I would like to welcome everyone to the Goldman Sachs BDC Inc. Q4 2023 earnings conference call. Please note that all participants will be in listen only mode until the end of the call when we will open up Speaker 100:00:16the line for questions. Before we Operator00:00:18begin today's call, I would like to remind our listeners that today's remarks may include forward looking statements. These statements represent the company's belief regarding future events that, by their nature, are uncertain and outside of the company's control. The company's actual results and financial condition may differ, possibly materially, from what is indicated in those forward looking statements as a result of a number of factors, including those described from time to time in the company's SEC filings. This audiocast is copyrighted material of Goldman Sachs BDC, Inc. And may not be duplicated, reproduced or rebroadcast without our consent. Operator00:00:52Yesterday, after the market closed, the company issued an earnings press release and posted a supplemental earnings presentation, both of which can be found on the homepage of our website at www.colemansachsbdc dotcom under the Investor Resources section and which includes reconciliations of non GAAP measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures. These documents should be reviewed in conjunction with the company's annual report on Form 10 ks filed yesterday with the SEC. This conference call is being recorded today, Thursday, February 29, 2024 for replay purposes. I'll now turn the call over to Alex Chi, Co Chief Executive Officer of Goldman Sachs BDC Inc. Speaker 200:01:34Thank you, Austin. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our 4th quarter and 2023 fiscal year end earnings conference call. I'm here today with David Miller, our Co Chief Executive Officer Tucker Green, our Chief Operating Officer and Stan Nieczewski, our Chief Financial Officer. I'll begin the call by providing an on the Goldman Sachs Private Credit platform before providing a brief overview of our Q4 results and then discuss the current market environment in more detail. I'll then turn the call over to David and Tucker to describe our portfolio activity and performance before handing it off to Stan to take us through our financial results. Speaker 200:02:12And then finally, we'll open the line for Q and A. So with that, I'd like to provide a brief update of the Goldman Sachs Private Credit platform and the positive impact on GSBD of being part of it. We're proud to announce that next week marks the 2nd anniversary of our platform integration process. This endeavor brought all of Goldman Sachs' private credit origination and underwriting capabilities as well as various pools of capital with track records that stretch back over 28 years under a single roof within our asset management business. As you may recall, historically, our BDC complex, including GSBD, operated as a separate and distinct platform on the public side of the house that was walled off from the rest of the firm and could not take full advantage of being part of the Goldman Sachs ecosystem. Speaker 200:03:02In these 2 short years, GSBD has been able to take advantage of the full origination capabilities of the broader private credit platform and its scale, enhance our infrastructure and improve upon our underwriting capabilities. I'd like to highlight a few examples. Amidst the volatile market and muted deal environment, the Goldman Sachs private credit platform remained active, deploying $12,000,000,000 in 2023. The Direct Lending Americas platform comprised the majority of the activity with over $6,000,000,000 deployed. Furthermore, taking advantage of the broader scale and origination capabilities, GSPD served as agent or lead lender on well above the majority of its new deals in 2023. Speaker 200:03:482nd, the team has spent the past 2 years actively upgrading GSPD's portfolio quality. As a point of reference, in the Q4 of 2021, just prior to the integration, GSPD had 89.3% at fair value in 1st lien senior secured loans, whereas as of the Q4 of 2023, that figure stood at 95.3% at fair value. At the same time, in the Q4 of 2021, 2nd lien loans comprised 8.2% of the portfolio at fair value versus the Q4 of 2023, where 2nd liens made up only 1.9% at fair value. This is a result of actions we discussed in previous quarters, whereby repayments and junior lien positions have allowed us to redeploy capital into attractive opportunities higher up in the capital structure, and we proactively took marks on legacy junior positions. Finally, our integration has allowed for the significant expansion of our overall deal funnel to provide more proprietary and unique direct lending opportunities for GSBD. Speaker 200:04:56For example, since 2004, Goldman Sachs Private Credit has been the leading lender in the middle market wireless power sector, deploying close to $7,000,000,000 of capital with no losses to date. During the quarter, the Goldman Sachs BioCredit platform served as a leader ranger on a senior secured facility to Skyway. Founded in 2005, Skyway is a Florida based wireless tower operator with 445 towers in its portfolio. The facility continues a long standing Goldman Sachs relationship with the Skyway team, which began with the financing of the Skyway's first portfolio in 2011 before its sale to American Tower, followed by the financing of multiple subsequent tower portfolios, including the current one. This is but one example of a new set of investment opportunities made available to GDSPD resulting from our integration efforts. Speaker 200:05:50Harrington is another example of an investment in the quarter where GDSBD utilized the scale of the broader senior direct lending platform to provide a commitment for the entire facility that allowed the sponsor to win the asset, and we served as lead arranger. Harrington is a California based specialty distributor of precision fluid control products across a variety of industry sectors. We are proud that we've been able to capitalize on the thesis that we communicated to our shareholders and lenders when we integrated GSPD, and we remain committed to leveraging the broader private credit platform for the benefit of GSPD shareholders in the quarters and years ahead. As we announced after the market close yesterday, our Board declared a Q1 of $0.45 per share dividend payable to shareholders of record as of March 28, 2024. This marks the company's 36th consecutive quarter of a $0.45 per share dividend totaling $16.20 per share since our IPO, excluding the special dividends we paid in 2021 post the merger with MMLC. Speaker 200:06:56Net asset value was $14.62 per share as of December 31, 2023. Increase was primarily attributable to net investment income exceeding our quarterly dividend, partially offset by net realized and unrealized losses for the quarter. We had previously expressed confidence that deal volumes would increase as the year progressed and the trend indeed continued in the Q4 as it did in the Q3. During the Q4, we reviewed more than 150 investment opportunities across our Direct Lending Americas platform and deployed capital at strong levels as David will expand upon in a bit. While we acknowledge that recent deal volumes have improved from recent lows in the past several quarters, we've also witnessed greater competition in the direct lending space, resulting in spread tightening over the past several months. Speaker 200:07:47We anticipate that as the overall deal environment improves, supply demand for private credit will align to support spread premiums and title lending terms in line with historical private credit underwriting experience. At the same time, it's worth considering that while the broadly syndicated loan market has also reopened, although primarily for near term refinancings, this is a dynamic that's more impactful to the upper middle market to larger cap segments, whereas GSPD is more focused on the core of the middle market. With that, let me turn it over to my Co CEO, David Miller. Speaker 300:08:22Thanks, Alex. During the quarter, we originated $166,200,000 in new investment commitments to 14 new and 4 existing portfolio companies. Sales and repayment activity totaled $224,000,000 primarily driven by the full repayment and exit of investments in 7 portfolio companies. In particular, as we continue to upgrade the quality of the portfolio, we are pleased with the full repayment of 1 junior lien position and exit of 2 equity positions, which will allow us to continue redeploying capital into new 1st lien oriented opportunities. Turning to portfolio composition. Speaker 300:09:04As of December 31, 2023, total investments in our portfolio were $3,400,000,000 at fair value, comprised of 97.2 percent in senior secured loans, including 91.1 percent 1st lien, 4.2% in 1st lien last out unit tranche and 1.9% in 2nd lien debt, as well as the negligible amount in unsecured debt and 2% in a combination of preferred and common stock and warrants. As of quarter end, the company held investments in 144 portfolio companies operating across 38 different industries. The weighted average yield of our investment portfolio at cost at the end of Q4 was 11.8% as compared to 11.6% from the prior quarter. The weighted average yield of our total debt and income producing investments at amortized cost remained at 12.6% at the end of Q4. I will now turn the call over to Tucker Green to discuss our overall credit quality. Operator00:10:10Thank you, David. The weighted average net debt to EBITDA of the companies in our investment portfolio increased to 6.1 times from 5.9 times during the Q3. This increase is primarily attributable to a single position that had a dip in EBITDA, which we believe is one time in nature. Excluding this one time move, weighted average net debt to EBITDA would have been 5.9 times. Importantly, our portfolio companies have both top line growth and EBITDA growth year over year on a weighted average basis. Operator00:10:40The weighted average interest coverage of the companies in our investment portfolio at quarter end remained flat at 1.5x as SOFR rates decreased very slightly for the quarter. We continue to monitor interest coverage sensitivity at underwrite for new investments and for each name in the portfolio. The underlying borrower's EBITDA growth combined with lower rate increases has provided stability to the coverage ratio. And finally, turning to asset quality. As of December 31, 2023, 1 portfolio company was placed on nonaccrual status, LCG Vardaman Block LLC, also known as Specialty Dental, a 1st lien position representing less than 1% of fair value. Operator00:11:23Further, certain investments in 3 portfolio companies were removed from non accrual, 2 of which were due to repayment and 1 due to improvement in performance. As of December 31, 2023, investments on non accrual status remained consistent at 2.3% of the total investment portfolio at fair value compared to 2.3% as of September 30, 2023 and decreased to 3.8% of the total investment portfolio at amortized cost from 4.2% as of September 30, 2023. With respect to underperforming credits in the portfolio, it is worth noting that our upgraded platform also includes embedded workout resources and expertise to address the aforementioned underperforming credits that were predominantly originated prior to the integration. Of note, our restructuring team currently has an average of industry workout experience. I will now turn the call over to Stan Matuszewski to walk through our financial results. Speaker 100:12:23Thank you, Tucker. We ended the Q4 of 2023 with total portfolio investments at fair value of $3,400,000,000 Speaker 200:12:31outstanding debt Speaker 100:12:31of $1,800,000,000 and net assets of $1,600,000,000 Our ending net debt to equity ratio as of the end of Q4 was 1.11x, which continues to be below our target leverage of 1.25x. At quarter end, approximately 47% of company's total principal amount of debt outstanding was in unsecured debt, and we had $724,000,000 of capacity available under our secured revolving credit facility. As previously mentioned, during the quarter, we executed an extension of the maturity of our secured revolving credit facility from May 2027 to October 2028. As a reminder, we have 2 separate unsecured notes due February 2025 and January 2026, respectively. As we mentioned on last quarter's call, we plan to address these maturities at the appropriate time. Speaker 100:13:23Before continuing to the income statement, as a reminder, in addition to GAAP financial measures, we will also reference certain non GAAP or adjusted measures. This is intended to make the company's financial results easier to compare to results prior to our October 2020 merger with MMLC. These non GAAP measures remove the purchase discount amortization impact from our financial results. For Q4, GAAP and adjusted after tax net investment income $61,800,000 $60,700,000 respectively, as compared to $72,900,000 $69,700,000 respectively, in the prior quarter. On a per share basis, GAAP net investment income was 0 point asset acquisition accounting in connection with the merger with MMLC, adjusted net investment income for the quarter was $0.55 per share, equating to an annualized net investment income yield on book value of 15%. Speaker 100:14:22Importantly, we would note that while total investment income declined between the 3rd and 4th quarters, the decline was driven by lower non recurring investment income resulting from a decrease in repayment related activity despite an increase in recurring investment income. Finally, the PIK percentage of our total investment income decreased slightly quarter over quarter and is only slightly up year over year, remaining in the single digits. Distributions during the quarter remained consistent at $0.45 per share. Our spillover taxable income is approximately $118,000,000 or $1.08 per share on a per share basis, which we believe provides continued stability on our consistent dividend since inception. As Alex mentioned, net asset value per share on December 31, 2023 was $14.62 as compared to $14.61 last quarter. Speaker 100:15:20With that, I'll turn it back to Alex for closing remarks. Speaker 200:15:23Thanks, Dan, and thanks, everyone, for joining our earnings call. We remain optimistic about the performance of our portfolio, the current environment and outlook for deployment into attractive opportunities. With that, let's open the line for Q and A. Speaker 400:15:54We'll go first to Finian O'Shea with Wells Fargo Securities. Speaker 500:16:01Hey, everyone. Good morning. Alex, we were interested on some of your earlier comments on the private credits integration in G and A. Speaker 200:16:13Ray, could you open the line for Q and A please? Speaker 400:16:20The line is open, sir. Speaker 300:16:23Hi. Can you hear me? Speaker 200:16:28Can you hear me? Speaker 400:16:29I can hear you, sir. Speaker 200:16:32Alex? Speaker 500:16:40I can't hear the Goldman team. Operator? Speaker 400:16:44Yes, I am here. Can you hear me? Speaker 500:16:48I can. It's Fin. Okay. Can anyone hear me? Speaker 400:17:07This is operator. Yes, I can hear you, Mr. O'Shea. Speaker 300:17:10But can the team hear me? Speaker 400:17:14It appears not. Give me just a moment. Speaker 500:17:51I don't think I'm muted. Speaker 400:17:53You are not, sir. Speaker 500:17:55Okay. Speaker 200:19:18I dial in from the phone. Speaker 500:19:20Hello, I can hear you now. Speaker 200:19:22Hello. It's the thing you turned Speaker 400:19:23We can hear you Speaker 500:19:26now. All right. Speaker 200:19:28Can you hear us? Speaker 500:19:31Yes. We can Speaker 400:19:32hear you now. Speaker 200:19:32Can you hear us? Speaker 500:19:34All right. All Speaker 200:19:34right. Why don't we start over? Sorry about that. We are experiencing technical difficulties here. Speaker 600:19:42Okay. Speaker 500:19:48Thanks for having me on and we will start the Q and A. So Alex, we were interested in some of your initial comments on the integration. There are historically 3 credit franchises with distinct strategies. So does this mean it's all collapsed into one strategy now or is there or else like what's new about the way the platform works? Speaker 200:20:21That's a good question. And again, it's all part of one platform now. And to your point, just for historical reasons, we had 3 different arms of Goldman Sachs that were in the private credit direct lending business. And then 2 years ago, we brought it all together. With respect to the various vehicles that we have, they continue to pursue their own distinct strategies. Speaker 200:20:44So for example, we have other pockets of capital that are in the large cap senior drug lending space, and that continues. GSBD has and will continue to focus on the core middle market. And then we have other pockets of capital that focus on NES, on hybrid special sits, etcetera. And so it all brings it together. It's all on the private side here at Goldman. Speaker 200:21:07And so it just allows us to take advantage of the broader ecosystem, as I mentioned, where we can get the full benefit of all the sourcing and origination and the army of bankers that we have talking to companies and sponsors every single day. And it just brings the full weight of the firm and it just allows us to have a wide funnel as we've talked about, proprietary deals and the benefit of just really strong due diligence. At the same time, it's one team. So we don't have 3 different teams. So in the U. Speaker 200:21:40S, we have about 80 investment professionals, and they're all focused on origination and core underwriting. And then when we source a deal, an investment, we know exactly where it's going to go based upon the various vehicles and the strategies that we have. So we just want to be a direct lending solutions provider to our borrowing clients. Speaker 500:22:00Sure. How much like within the other strategies, what's the benefit of like a core middle market deal? How much more capital do you have to say lead a deal or drive terms and all of the above, like what helps the go ahead, sure. Speaker 200:22:28No, it's a great question. So first of all, what we couldn't do before was if the large cap pocket of the firm originated a deal that was call it core GSBD focus area $59 of EBITDA, It was just it was too small for the large cap. We could not refer it to GSPD just even if we wanted to, just weren't allowed to. So when we obviously collapsed it, GSPD now gets the benefit of that origination. On top of that, as we've also talked about, GSPD has its own vehicle, has its capital, as you know. Speaker 200:23:06But when we're in an increasingly competitive environment where scale matters, For example, the Harrington deal that I just talked about, we have other pockets of capital that can speak for that deal in its entirety. So that allowed us as a platform to go to that sponsor and say we can underwrite the entire deal, give you a commitment for the entire financing so you can go win that sell side auction. And that's exactly what we did. GSPD got an allocation to that. And so that's how we go to market now. Speaker 500:23:38Okay. So if I combine if I take this, you can do larger deals and I think you were in the commentary you also flagged like the non accrual as a pre integration credit. Does this mean you're going to move up in EBITDA in a meaningful way? Speaker 200:24:01Look, that's something we could explore at some point in the future. But as I mentioned, in terms of the criteria for the size that we stuck to for GSPD, it's really up to businesses with EBITDA of up to $200,000,000 And so that's why you just really haven't seen the EBITDA move up meaningfully. It ticked up a little bit in the Q4, but it's still in or around the $50,000,000 $55,000,000 EBITDA range for the portfolio within GSPD. We have other pockets of capital that can pursue large cap as well as mid market at the same time. GSPD is just we'll always be focused on we'll continue to be focused on middle market. Speaker 500:24:44Okay. That's helpful. And last one for me on this thread. The other two groups historically sourced origination from the investment bank, sponsor coverage, leverage finance, etcetera. Is that going to bring the BDC franchise, does that come into that fold? Speaker 500:25:07Are we now going to source from the investment bank? Speaker 200:25:14So, first of all, appreciate that it's certainly an advantage to have the investment bank there originating investment opportunities for us. But still, the vast majority of the deals that we've originated are really directly off the platform. Having said that, we get a tremendous amount of referrals that come in from Investment Banking, from Private Wealth that cover the largest family owned enterprises in the world. If you look at just over the course of the year, where we have the full year of the benefit of integration, roughly about a third of new deals that we did within GSPD came from this one Goldman Sachs advantage, as we'll talk about. So we're not certainly relying upon Investment Banking to source for us, but it certainly provides additional flow and allows us to be a lot more selective about what we choose to do. Speaker 200:26:08Awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks, Sven. Speaker 400:26:14We'll go next to Arren Cyganovich with Citi. Speaker 700:26:19Thanks. I think you mentioned in your prepared remarks that you're seeing kind of activity or expecting activity to pick up in expectations for spread to tighten? Are you seeing from a competitive standpoint banks reentering into lending or is this still primarily just the direct lenders that you're competing with? Speaker 200:26:47We're certainly seeing the BSO market reopening. We have our own leveraged finance department within banking that's certainly active. But what we're also seeing is that that's really a large cap phenomena. We have our own large cap vehicles and we're certainly seeing additional competitive pressure from that standpoint in addition to the large amount of private capital that's just been raised overall. But we had not seen banks really get back into the core middle market, which is where GSPD plays. Speaker 200:27:19So although we have seen a bit of spread compression over the course of the year and quarter over quarter, it has not been the magnitude of what we've seen on the large cap side of the business. Speaker 700:27:34Okay. And then you had mentioned that you had, I think, one company had a dip in EBITDA. But from a broader perspective in your portfolio companies, are you seeing continued EBITDA growth? Or is that starting to slow or something? Speaker 200:27:53We're certainly seeing continued EBITDA growth. So if you look at the 4th quarter on an LTM basis, our top line for the portfolio grew on a weighted average basis about 16.5%. And on an EBITDA basis, it grew about 7.5%. But what's also interesting is if you look at EBITDA margins quarter over quarter, we're certainly seeing how our portfolio companies are passing along price increases to their customers. So EBITDA margin has actually expanded about 130 basis points in the 4th quarter over the 3rd. Speaker 200:28:23So we are really happy to see that. Speaker 700:28:27That's helpful. Thank you. Speaker 400:28:31Thank you. We'll go next to Mark Hughes with Truist. Speaker 600:28:37Yes. Thank you. Good morning. Just looking at your spread of ratings, just looking at the percentage of the portfolio, kind of the 1 through 4, little bit of movement in there, still high quality, but a little bit of erosion. Is that kind of the higher for longer just interest coverage issue? Speaker 600:29:05What would account for the little bit of movement? And then do you think that's kind of hit its worst? Is it should it stabilize from here given the interest rate environment, given the economy? How do you see that? Speaker 200:29:27I think with respect to the portfolio, there might be some movements from name to name. But in terms of the overall quality of the portfolio, we really haven't seen much movement. It's actually quite stable. As you saw, we moved one name Rating 2 to Rating 3, and we took a mark on that particular position. But we also moved a number of names off of non accrual as well. Speaker 200:29:54As we exited those investments, 2 of them and another one actually we put back on accrual, which is based upon good performance. So I wouldn't call out anything idiosyncratic about our portfolio. It's just really quarter over quarter just based upon the dynamics that we've talked about. Speaker 600:30:12Understood. And then on your net investment activity, it sounds like more opportunities that you're looking at. You've had some decent repayment activity here lately. How do you think that's going to shake out in the near term? Is it still kind of a push or when do you start to get ahead of that? Speaker 200:30:35Look, in terms of activity, we remain quite optimistic about the second half of this year. Lots of different factors, which I'm sure you've heard of from us as well as other managers in the space. But private credit continues to be driven really by private equity activity, leverage buyouts, add on activity. It's well known just the sheer amount of dry powder that's out there. In addition, there is a significant amount of full company that are owned by private equity firms that really just have to be monetized. Speaker 200:31:10I believe last year was the 2nd lowest amount of distributions from private equity firms to their LPs in a quarter century. So in order for private equity firms to really raise the next fund, they're going to have to distribute capital. So at the same time, just going back to Fin's question, we have the benefit of speaking with our investment bankers who sell many companies to private equity firms. And they will tell us that the backlog of companies that they've been mandated to sell just continues to sit at near record levels. So for all those reasons, we remain optimistic. Speaker 200:31:51If rates do start to come down later in the year, that should signal more confidence. And so that will also just open the floodgates a bit more on M and A activity, and we will get our share of that. Speaker 700:32:08Thank you. Speaker 200:32:10Thank you. We'll go Speaker 400:32:16to our next question from Robert Dodd with Raymond James. Speaker 800:32:23On the repayment activity in the quarter, Richard, that was pretty significantly, but the repayment fees accelerated LID, etcetera, were down. Was that just coincidental? Or was there any effort by you to, I don't want to put it, encourage some of the older assets, which is Pablo, I have no idea, to migrate out of the portfolio? I mean, is this a part of the rotation or just coincidence? Speaker 100:32:55Hi, Robert. Yes, it's just coincidence. I'd say last quarter, we had some investments that exited that were some larger investments with Some deals that had come over in the MMLC merger that had large unamortized balances and that was really what was kind of driving up that nonrecurring income last quarter. We did still see some accelerated amortization and repayment related interest income this quarter, but it just wasn't coincidentally, with the handful of investments last quarter with the larger balances on amortized. Speaker 800:33:34Got it. Got it. Thank you. On leverage, I mean, you are below target right now. I mean, obviously, with rates where they are, you don't need to be pushing the envelope on the leverage to produce earnings while in excess of the dividend, right? Speaker 800:33:51So is that should we expect leverage to ramp up rapidly or is it going to be relatively rapid, depending on the market and activity? Or is the intent to ramp it up a little slower, as maybe as rates come down as kind of an off term factor? Speaker 200:34:13Hey, Robert, it's David. No, I think you'll Speaker 300:34:14see us take that up slightly. I don't think you're going see a rapid increase. As you know, it's 1.25 is our target leverage. So I think you'll see us in future quarters probably approach that level, but it's going to bounce around up and down a little bit from our target level depending on activity in the portfolio. Speaker 800:34:33Got it. Thank you. And then on the last one for me, on the unsecured side, obviously, you don't have maturities until '25, 'twenty six. But would you be looking to potentially come to market if that opens up in maybe this year to increase your unsecured mix or pre fund the 25s? And how about that? Speaker 800:34:55If you did, would you be looking to do that at fixed rate or what? It would be fixed rate, but would you be looking to swap that to manage the exposure to late differentials? Or are you going to stay with historic pattern of unsecured space fixed? Speaker 300:35:18Yes. I mean, look, we're actively monitoring the market. As you pointed out, we have some 2025 maturities. So I think you'll see us address those at the right time. As far as fixed versus floating, we're going to evaluate that at time based on where the curve is and what's most beneficial to our investors depending on when we execute a transaction. Speaker 800:35:40Okay. Thank you. Speaker 400:35:45There are no other questions at this time. This does conclude today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. 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