First American Financial Q4 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

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Provided by Quartr
February 8, 2024

There are 11 speakers on the call.

Operator

Greetings, and welcome to the First American Financial Corporation 4th Quarter and Full Year 2023 Earnings Conference Call. A copy of today's press release is available on First American's website at www.firstam.com /investor. Please note that the call is being recorded and will be available for replay from the company's investor website and for a short time by dialing 877-660-6853 or 201-612-7415 and enter the conference ID 13,74995. We will now turn the call over to Craig Barberio, Vice President, Investor Relations to make an Restatement.

Speaker 1

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to First American's 4th quarter and year end earnings conference call for the year 2023. Joining us today on the call will be our Chief Executive Officer, Ken DiGiorgio and Mark Seaton, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. Some of the statements made today may contain forward looking statements that do not relate strictly to historical or current fact. These forward looking statements speak only as of the date they are made, and the company does not undertake to update forward looking statements to reflect circumstances and events that occur after the date the forward looking statements are made. Risks and uncertainties exist that may cause results to differ materially from those set forth in these forward looking statements.

Speaker 1

For more information on these risks and uncertainties, please refer to yesterday's earnings release and the risk factors discussed on our 4 10 ks and subsequent SEC filings. Our presentation today also contains certain non GAAP financial measures that we believe provide additional insight into the operational efficiency and performance of the company relative to earlier periods and relative to the company's competitors. For more details on these non GAAP financial measures, including presentation with and reconciliation to the most directly comparable GAAP financials, Please refer to yesterday's earnings release, which is available on our website at www.firstam.com. I would now like to turn the call over to Ken DiGiorgio. Thank you, Craig.

Speaker 2

We were performing well in a challenging market ahead of the cybersecurity That occurred in late December. As previously disclosed, we elected to take systems offline while we assessed and remediated the situation. The incident materially impacted the company's operations and consequently our 4th quarter financial results. Our title orders and related product demand appear to have returned to normal levels, however, and we do not expect any significant ongoing impact from the incident. Looking to 2024, we expect challenging market conditions to persist.

Speaker 2

Housing affordability and lack of inventory will remain headwinds for our purchase business. Refinance activity will also remain subdued Given that most existing mortgages carry interest rates under 5%. Transactions in the commercial market should increase, albeit at lower prices as price discovery continues. While we expect to see modest revenue growth in both our residential and commercial businesses this year, This could change depending on the path of mortgage rates. Turning to order trends in our key markets, Purchase open orders in January are up 6% compared with last year.

Speaker 2

Refinance open orders in January averaged over 300 per day, consistent with trough levels experienced throughout 2023. Commercial open orders for January are up 7% compared with last year. While some of these orders spilled over from December, these trends Support our assessment that the cybersecurity incident will not have a significant ongoing impact on our business. Despite the uncertainty of the timing of a sustained recovery in our key markets, the strength of our business along with our financial discipline and strong balance sheet allow us to continue to invest for long term growth while returning capital to our shareholders. We remain active in our share repurchase program, Repurchasing $18,000,000 of our shares in the 4th quarter for a total of $73,000,000 for the full year at an average price of $55.18 per share.

Speaker 2

In closing, I want to acknowledge the significant support provided by our agents and customers and other industry participants during our cybersecurity incident. I also appreciate the patience our customers demonstrated as we work through the process of returning to normal operations. In addition, we have consistently highlighted the importance of our people to the success of our business. The incredible dedication and resilience they demonstrated in response to the cybersecurity incident underscores this principle. I greatly appreciate their tireless efforts to serve our customers and restore our systems.

Speaker 2

Now I'd like to Turn the call over to Mark for a more detailed discussion of our financial results.

Speaker 3

Thank you, Ken. This quarter we generated earnings of $0.33 per diluted share. Our adjusted earnings per share, which excludes the impact Net investment losses and purchase related amortization was $0.69 These results include tax benefits of $5,000,000 or $0.05 per share, primarily due to research and development tax credits we claimed. As previously disclosed, our earnings this quarter were materially impacted by the cybersecurity incident. However, The exact impact the incident had on our results is unknowable.

Speaker 3

In our title segment, revenue from certain transactions were transitioned to other providers, while others were delayed into 2024. On December 18, prior to our systems being taken offline, We produced an internal forecast estimating our adjusted EPS to be $1 per share. This forecast includes our actual results for October November, our forecast for December had a tax rate of 24%. Our actual adjusted EPS was $0.69 including the $0.05 tax benefit implying a 0.36 and shortfall relative to our internal estimate. Although we believe most of this difference is related to the cyber incident, As I mentioned, the exact impact the incident had on our 4th quarter results is unknowable.

Speaker 3

Included in this $0.36 shortfall was $11,000,000 of direct expenses related to the incident in our corporate segment. It is too early to tell how much of this shortfall will be recouped in the or how much will ultimately be covered by our insurance program. We do not believe the incident will have a significant impact on the company's outlook for 2024. Turning to our title segment, revenue was 1,300,000,000 10% compared with the same quarter of 2022. Commercial revenue was $172,000,000 a 32% decline over last year.

Speaker 3

Our average revenue per order for commercial transactions declined 20% this quarter to $11,000 due to a combination of fewer large transactions at lower valuations as prices in the commercial market soften. Purchase revenue was down 11% during the quarter, driven by a 14% decrease in the number of orders closed, partially offset by a 4% increase in the average revenue per order. Refinance revenue declined 32% relative to last year. Although mortgage rates have fallen 100 basis points from the recent highs, There are still levels materially above what is needed to generate a significant rise in refinance activity. In the agency business, revenue was $570,000,000 down twenty Given the reporting lag in agent revenues of approximately 1 quarter, these results reflect remittances related to Q3 economic activity.

Speaker 3

Our information and other revenues were $211,000,000 down 12% relative to last year. This decline was primarily due to reduced demand for the company's data and property information products in our direct title business. Investment income within the Title Insurance and Services segment was $132,000,000 unchanged relative to the prior year as higher interest rates were offset by lower escrow balances. For the full year of 2023, We saw our investment income surge 50% as the Fed raised rates 4 times. Now as the Fed prepares to lower rates, We estimate that for each 25 basis point decline in the fed funds rate, our annualized investment income will decline 15,000,000 but the ultimate amount will fluctuate depending on the level of cash and escrow balances.

Speaker 3

The provision for policy losses and other claims was 30,000,000 in the 4th quarter or 3.0 percent of title premiums and escrow fees, down from the 4.0% loss provision rate in the prior year. The 3.0 percent loss rate reflects an ultimate loss rate of 3.75% for the current year with an $8,000,000 release for prior policy years. Over the last several quarters, we have highlighted the margin drag in the title segment related to 3 strategic initiatives, ServiceMac endpoint and instant decisioning for purchase transactions. We have seen significant earnings improvement in ServiceMac since we acquired the in October of 2021. And this quarter, the pre tax margin of ServiceMac was in line with our overall title segment results and no longer a margin drag.

Speaker 3

Therefore, we are removing ServiceMac from our commentary and only including endpoint and instant decision for purchase transactions. Together these two strategic initiatives reduced our pre tax margin in the title segment by 130 basis points. Pre tax margin in the title segment was 4.5% or 7.5% on an adjusted basis. Total revenue in our home warranty business totaled $99,000,000 a 9% decline compared with last year. In 2020 We recognized a favorable deferred revenue adjustment of $8,000,000 Excluding this adjustment, revenue in our home warranty business would be flat relative to last year.

Speaker 3

Pre tax income in home warranty was $15,000,000 down 6% from the prior year. The loss ratio in home warranty was 44%, down from 47% in 2022, driven by lower frequency and severity of claims. Adjusted pre tax margin in the Home Warranty segment was 19.9%, up from 18.8% in 2022. The effective tax rate for the quarter was 10.7%, lower than our normalized tax rate of 24%, due primarily to research and development tax credits we recognized during the quarter. In the 4th quarter, we repurchased 300 9,000 shares for a total of $18,000,000 at an average price of $53.85 Our debt to capital ratio as of December 31 was 28.6%.

Speaker 3

Excluding secured financing payable, our debt to capital ratio was 22.3%. Now, I would like to turn the call back over to the operator to take your questions.

Operator

Thank you. We will now be conducting the question and answer session. Our first question comes from Boza George with KBW. Please state your question.

Speaker 4

Hey, everyone. Good morning. I wanted to ask, In terms of your margin expectation for 2024, if the MBA is right, we have a modest improvement in purchase. And as you noted, commercial gets a little better, NII maybe a little bit worse, like where do you think everything kind of shakes out in terms of your margin in 2024 versus 23?

Speaker 3

Thanks for the question, Bose. There's a lot of factors, I mean, the good news is we do feel like there'll be modest growth in our core business. We talk about commercial and purchase, perhaps maybe not quite as much as the MBA suggesting, but we do feel like we'll have some modest We also feel like our 3% loss rate that we booked this quarter is sustainable from what we can see now. So that should be a little bit of a tailwind. The downside for next year is if the Fed starts to lower rates, That's going to have an impact on our investment income.

Speaker 3

I just talked to my script here how we're going to lose $15,000,000 of annualized investment income every time the Fed lowers rates. So we'll have to see how that plays out, but that would be A headwind, but right now as we look at everything, we feel like our margins in 2024 are going to be very Similar to what they were in 2023. We had double digit margin this year. We feel like we can hit double digit margins in 2024 as well.

Speaker 4

Okay, great. That's helpful. Thanks. And then, actually I just wanted to ask the cash balance went up a lot in the quarter. What was driving that?

Speaker 3

It was really a function of the incident. We had a lot of cash at our bank. Typically, We wouldn't hold that much cash. We would push it out to 3rd party banks, but it was incident related and we just held a lot of cash to our bank because we didn't quite have the ability to push it out to 3rd party banks like we typically do at that time of year.

Speaker 4

Okay, great. And then actually one more on NII. Do you think the balances will be escrow will be roughly flat year over year? Any reason to think it will be different?

Speaker 3

Well, I would say we think balances they really track our commercial business. Yes, I would say that they should be up modestly in 2024. Roughly about 60% of our escrow balances Our commercial related, so they're really going to attract commercial. So if you think commercial is going to have modest improvement, we should have modest improvement in our escrow balances as well.

Speaker 4

Okay, great. Thank you.

Speaker 3

Thanks, Moshe.

Operator

Our next question comes from Terry Ma with Barclays. Please state your question.

Speaker 5

Hey, thanks. Good morning. So on the 130 basis point margin drag from endpoint and Instant Is there any color you can provide on how that kind of trends throughout the year? I think with ServiceMac, it had Kind of been abating by about 20 basis points a quarter.

Speaker 3

We think it's going to improve throughout the year. Our endpoint results have improved and we think they're going to get better and better. We've been talking about instant decisioning from purchase transactions for a few quarters now And those expenses we feel like are going to ramp up this year as we roll out that. And so I think it'll improve a little bit, but it'll still be a drag even as we get to the end of the year, but probably less than 130 basis points we're experiencing now.

Speaker 5

Okay, got it. And then on the investment income, is there, I guess, any more color you can provide just based on where the forward curve is right

Speaker 3

now? Well, when we checked yesterday Forward curve I think had 5 rate decreases. One of those would be in December which wouldn't really have an effect on us. And so I would just I mean The guidance that we look at internally again is every time the Fed cuts, we're going to lose $15,000,000 of investment income in our segment. And so, if the Fed is going to cut 5 times, one of those again in December, which wouldn't really have an effect on investment income, We lose $60,000,000 of annualized investment income.

Speaker 3

That wouldn't all hit obviously next year, but you can sort of model that out given the guidance we've provided.

Operator

Our next question comes from Soham Bansal with BTIG. Please state your question.

Speaker 6

Hey, good morning guys. Hope you're doing well. Just a follow-up on the margin. I guess you talked through some of the puts and takes here. But is there any additional CapEx that we should be thinking about to maybe shore up any of your systems with the cyber incident or any sort of investment that you would have to make this year that we should be thinking about?

Speaker 3

I would just say that we're in terms of CapEx specifically, our CapEx is going to come down next So in 2023, we had $263,000,000 of CapEx and it will come down somewhere between 10% 15 Next year, some of that is because, we've finished some projects that we no longer need. Other parts of the decline is just because we feel like we can do things more efficiently Than we have in the past. We're hiring a lot of engineers to do the work for us as opposed to using more third parties, which is saving us on CapEx. So CapEx is going to come down next year Somewhere around 10% to 15%. And that's despite some, I'd say, enhancements we need to make to our Information security program, but it's not going to have a material impact on our earnings or CapEx next year.

Speaker 6

Got it. Okay. And then can I Get sort of an update on the roll off of your subservicing assets here? How should we think about that impacting the investment income line potentially through the year?

Speaker 3

So we've talked about in the past these HomePoint loans. It's unclear exactly when the HomePoint loans Would leave. Right now, our expectation is that they would leave somewhere in mid year. But one thing I would say is That again is not going to have a material impact certainly to our investment income because we generate investment income from those loans. But we also pay out interest So even if we lost them, it's not going to have you'll see fluctuations for interest income and interest expense, but from a pre tax perspective, it's not going to be It's not going to be significant at all.

Speaker 3

But to answer your question, right now the expectation is we hold on to those mid year, but that could change depending on circumstances.

Speaker 6

Got it. And then just last one, I think, Mark, you guys have talked about, look, the $15,000,000 is better than the $20,000,000 historically because you're trying to sort of Bring folks to the bank and maybe bank with you guys. I guess I was wondering, have you seen any sort of discernible movement in agent behavior in a market Like New York, where we're sort of hearing just likes of NYCB and these folks having some issues. Are you seeing some of that business come to you or any sort of other banks in that market specifically?

Speaker 3

You're talking about like deposits for

Speaker 2

our agent banking initiatives? Yes, the ASP growth.

Speaker 3

We haven't seen a big influx in deposits because of the issues you're referring to here. But I would just say that long term we are real positive on agent banking. When we started in January of 'twenty three, we had Basically, $110,000,000 of deposits for agent banking. At the end of the year, we had $271,000,000 of deposits. So we're growing it really nicely.

Speaker 3

It's just from a very small base, Right. On a bank deposit base of $6,000,000,000 I mean $270,000,000 isn't material, but we're very optimistic about the growth. We feel like we've got a good Product market fit, we just need a little bit more time to execute. So we're very optimistic, but the growth that we're seeing isn't because of Any troubles of any other banks, it's mostly because we can provide a really efficient product and service to our agent banking clients. Understood.

Speaker 3

All right. Thanks a lot, guys. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from Mark Hughes with Securities. Please state your question.

Speaker 7

Yes. Any thoughts on capital management outlook for 2024?

Speaker 3

Well, capital management, there's a couple of different components we think about. One is M and A. And I would Just say that we would have thought the acquisition pipeline would have been a little bit more robust when the market It really hasn't as we've talked about on these calls, but we feel like the longer this kind of market malaise last, the more M and A opportunities will be. So that will always be something We look at, in terms of the buyback, I mean, we've been very active in the buyback the last 2 or 3 years and that's always something that we'll look at. At the end of the day, if we got excess capital, we feel like the stock is undervalued and we don't have Better uses for the capital, we'll buy it back.

Speaker 3

And so that's always something we'll continue to evaluate. And then of course the dividend, we're not Committed to raising dividend every year come hell or high water, but we pretty much have raised the dividend and that's something we want to continue to do. So the fortunate part is that we've got a really good balance sheet at the trough of the cycle here and we're looking to actively Put it to work where we can.

Speaker 7

And then not to try to cut it Finally, but you've mentioned that the January purchase up 6%, commercial up 7%. I think you suggested there could be some spillover from December, if you look at the kind of recent trends maybe late January or early February, do you see any Difference relative to those numbers you gave us.

Speaker 2

Yes. Excuse me. Thanks for the question, Marty. I think we saw probably a larger uptick in The early weeks, the 1st week of January and some of the tailed off as you went through the month, which suggests, yes, There was some spillover. But I think on the whole, we feel pretty good about where the numbers came out in January.

Speaker 7

Yes. Well, I guess they didn't immediately ship the order somewhere else. So spillover has some meaning as well. Okay. Thank you very much.

Operator

Our next question comes from John Campbell with Stephens. Please state your question.

Speaker 8

Hey guys, good morning.

Speaker 3

Good morning.

Speaker 8

Hey, so Mark in your prepared remarks, you highlighted that it's Possible to fully size up that the exact impact of the cyber incident. I think that's definitely understandable. There's obviously a lot of moving parts there, but I'm going to see if we get a little bit more color At least on what was visible for you guys. So you called out the $11,000,000 expense. But as far as maybe what else is visible to you guys, maybe Orders that got pushed into 1Q like you just mentioned or maybe it's orders you had in the mix that pulled out and went to competitors.

Speaker 8

Do you have any rough sense for what Just broadly what the degree of the impact was from that standpoint?

Speaker 2

It's really impossible. It's impossible to tell. It's extremely difficult to tell. I mean, certainly, Some orders that might have been open with us in the last couple of weeks in December might have opened somewhere else. Though again, we saw some of the spillover, which maybe they were holding the orders And sent them to us as soon as our systems got back online.

Speaker 2

I think where the real issue is our orders that would have closed with us at the end of December and either the customer moved them or in many instances we moved those orders. But keep in mind that's behind us now. Those things are behind us now. So we're focused on the orders we got. And again, I think a lot of them, if not all of them or most of them spilled over into January.

Speaker 2

And We'll realize the benefit of those orders in the ordinary course, under the ordinary timeframes, be they a purchase refi or a commercial order.

Speaker 8

Okay. That makes sense. And then, Mark, on the investment income, you mentioned the $15,000,000 sensitivity to every 25 basis point cut. I wanted to see if you could give us your latest sensitivity or I guess maybe a rule of thumb on the interest expense offset. So for every $15,000,000 how much You would be able to offset an interest expense?

Speaker 3

That's something we can Tighten up, but I would say, first of all, it's a good point because if we lose investment income, we are going to lose interest expense. The high level rule of thumb is If we lose a dollar of investment income, we'll lose about $0.50 of interest expense. I mean, a lot that's kind of what I would use For maybe modeling purposes, a lot of it depends on the mix of where our investment income Coming from how much of that's the bank versus the non bank. But that's the high level of some I'd use.

Speaker 8

Okay. Okay. And then if I could squeeze in one more here. On the success ratio, I think you guys had talked to maybe a kind of similar 50% or so in 2024. Obviously, you're going to be lapping this weaker quarter.

Speaker 8

For next year, you're going to have maybe a pair of little bit of losses out of the investments. You've obviously got some impact from investment income, but maybe if you could talk to whether you feel like that's still kind of a target that you'll manage to?

Speaker 2

Yes. John, yes, I mean, we're definitely managing to the 50%, 60% success ratio. Keep in mind, though, when we talk about modest revenue growth, the success ratio is less meaningful. But no, we're absolutely still managing to that level.

Speaker 8

Okay. Thank you, guys.

Speaker 3

And John, I just want to follow-up on your first question. So when I said for every dollar of investment income we lose, we lose $0.50 of Interest expense, that's in the title segment only. I mean, obviously, the corporate segment, we have our the interest expense from our bonds that are outstanding. So my commentary was title segment only.

Speaker 8

Okay. Makes sense.

Speaker 3

Thanks, John.

Operator

Our next question comes from Geoffrey Dunn with Dowling and Partners. Please go ahead.

Speaker 9

Thanks. Good morning. My first question is with respect to the Automated title and endpoint, how much insight do you have into the timeline of that remaining of both those initiatives remaining a drag on your margin?

Speaker 2

Well, I mean, I don't think I mean, it's not going to last forever. I think endpoint 2023 was probably a peak year in the losses of Endpoint. And I think those are going to gradually come down over the Couple of next couple of years. On instant decisioning for purchase transactions, as Mark mentioned, the expenses are probably ramp up, but it's early days on that initiative, very early days. And while I think the expense and the whole scope of thing Fairly modest.

Speaker 2

It will increase modestly over time until we start to realize the benefits of that. That was much harder to predict, but I would anticipate again with endpoint that those The drag is starting to decrease and it will decrease over time over the next couple of years.

Speaker 3

Okay. And

Speaker 9

then sorry, more macro question. I think you it sounded like maybe you thought the MBA was a bit aggressive on their forecasts. As you go into 'twenty four, are you positioning the company more for a Like somewhere in the range of the Fannie and MBA forecast or are you maybe more cautious? And I'm particularly interested in your thoughts of The scenario where maybe we see 1 to 3 cuts but late in the year and 'twenty three ends up or 'twenty four looks up like Looking more like 23 than it does 25.

Speaker 2

Well, I think 25 is going to look a lot better 'twenty four and 'twenty three. So I guess I view 'twenty four as a transition year. So yes, we think the MBA is pretty optimistic. And we think the GSEs are probably a little optimistic as well. We're probably coming in a little light of them.

Speaker 2

And again, we see As we mentioned earlier, we see modest revenue growth, but I do see 24 as a transition year. And if we get the rate cuts that the forward curve expects or even if we get 1 or 2 less, I think it's setting us up for a great 2025.

Speaker 9

All right. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from Mark DeVries with Deutsche Bank. Please state your question.

Speaker 10

Yes, thanks. One more question for you about the impact of the cyber Mark, as you pointed out, there's a lag in reporting in the agent channel. Should we not expect To see that kind of flow through to 1Q agent premiums?

Speaker 3

We will definitely have some that trickles over in the Q1. There's no question about that, but it's just it's not going to be material. I wouldn't say it's material. So there will be remittances that we get because our agents Couldn't like remit the last week or 2 of the year. And so we're getting those now.

Speaker 3

But typically, It's a fairly slow time for agent remittances anyways and it's just it won't be material in Q1.

Speaker 10

Okay, fair enough.

Speaker 9

And then I was just hoping

Speaker 10

to get a little bit more context about what kind of gives you comfort that there will be a significant ongoing impact From the incident, is there anything you can kind of share about the nature or frequency of any kind of regulatory conversations or inquiries around it? And also just Discuss kind of what efforts you're doing to identify and fix vulnerabilities in your systems there?

Speaker 2

Yes, I mean, I think the big thing about kind of getting back to normal or no ongoing impact is just, first of all, the orders We saw the order counts we saw come in, in January. And then the feedback we've gotten from our customers. I think by and large our customers have indicated that They've put the incident behind them. And unfortunately in this day of age, these types of things are becoming more and more commonplace as we've seen with have an incident like this, there's regulatory inquiries and potential litigation. But because Our information security program really was probably best in class.

Speaker 2

I don't anticipate, But again, you never know with regulators, but I don't anticipate to have fines or the light coming out of regulators. Now obviously, plaintiff's lawyers Our different, they always come out of the woodwork in instances like this, but I don't anticipate that any of that Be material. I would layer in as well that we also have a fairly robust cyber insurance program, which would help mitigate the impact of some of those expenses as well.

Speaker 10

Okay. That's helpful. And then just one last follow-up on that last point. I think you Mark, is there any sense you can give us for if you do get Insurance recoveries, what those might look like?

Speaker 3

I'm sorry, Mark, you broke up there. Can you repeat the question?

Speaker 10

Yes. Just is there any sense you can give us for the insurance recoveries and what if you receive them what those might look like?

Speaker 3

Well, we have a $5,000,000 deductible that we booked in Q4. And so we'll have Expenses that hit in 2024 related to the incident, but as long as we feel like those are Probable in terms of recoveries and we won't see them hit the P and L. So we don't see any significant impact in terms of the P and L in 2020 because the incident we felt like was all kind of booked in Q4.

Speaker 10

Okay, got it. Thank you.

Speaker 3

Thanks, Mark.

Operator

Our next question comes from Soham Basal with BTIG. Please state your question.

Speaker 6

Hey, Mark. I just wanted to quickly follow-up on your Comment on margins for 2024. So I think you said something along the lines of it's going to be similar to 23, but then you also said low double digits. I mean, low double digits could be a pretty wide range there. So could you maybe just put a little bit of finer point there for this year?

Speaker 3

Well, our adjusted margin in 23% and title was 9.9%. So I mean it's So our margins in 24%, given all the commentary I gave earlier is more like a call it a 10% margin. Now listen, if the MBA is right and originations are up 15% to 20%, we're going to do a lot better than that. So we've got more Kind of scale in our business and we're running it more efficiently than we ever have. I mean, we have a 10% margin here at the trough and cycle is pretty good for us given historical standards.

Speaker 3

So we just again, if we see modest improvement in 2024, we'll still be at that 10% range.

Speaker 6

So should we think about a 10% sort of like if volumes are up mid singles, right, versus sort of 10% to 15%, is that the right way to think about

Speaker 3

Yes, I'd say low to mid single digits will be a 10%. Now obviously there's a lot of moving pieces, but that's our expectation is early in the year.

Speaker 6

Understood. All right. Thanks a

Operator

Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thank you.

Operator

There are no additional questions at this time. That concludes this morning's call. We'd like to remind listeners that today's call will be available for replay on the company's website or by dialing 877 660-6853 or 201-612-7415 and enter the conference ID 13,7,4395. The company would like to thank you for your participation. This concludes today's conference call.

Operator

You may disconnect now.

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