Sienna Senior Living Q1 2024 Earnings Report C$16.14 +0.38 (+2.41%) As of 04/9/2025 04:00 PM Eastern Earnings HistoryForecast Sienna Senior Living EPS ResultsActual EPSC$0.27Consensus EPS N/ABeat/MissN/AOne Year Ago EPSN/ASienna Senior Living Revenue ResultsActual Revenue$230.95 millionExpected RevenueN/ABeat/MissN/AYoY Revenue GrowthN/ASienna Senior Living Announcement DetailsQuarterQ1 2024Date5/9/2024TimeN/AConference Call DateFriday, May 10, 2024Conference Call Time9:00AM ETConference Call ResourcesConference Call AudioConference Call TranscriptSlide DeckInterim ReportEarnings HistorySIA ProfileSlide DeckFull Screen Slide DeckPowered by Sienna Senior Living Q1 2024 Earnings Call TranscriptProvided by QuartrMay 10, 2024 ShareLink copied to clipboard.There are 7 speakers on the call. Operator00:00:00Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Sienna Senior Living Incorporated First Quarter 2024 Conference Call. Today's call is hosted by Newton Jain, President and Chief Executive Officer and David Hong, Chief Financial Officer of Ciena Senior Living Incorporated. Please be aware that certain statements or information discussed today are forward looking and actual results could differ materially. The company does not undertake to update any forward looking statement or information. Please refer to the forward looking information and risk factors sections in the company's public filings, including its most recent MD and A and AIF for more information. Operator00:00:41You will also find a more full time discussion of the company's results in its MD and A and financial statements for the period, which are posted on SEDAR Plus and can be found on the company's website, cianaliving. Ca. Today's call is being recorded and a replay will be available. Instructions for accessing the call are posted on the company's website and the details are provided in the company's news release. The company has posted slides, which accompany the host's remarks on the company website under Events and Presentation. Operator00:01:24With that, I will turn the call to Mr. Jain. Please go ahead, Mr. Jain. Speaker 100:01:30Thank you, Kath. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us on our call today. We are off to a great start in this year. Our first quarter results highlight that we have transitioned into a period of stability and growth. We are grateful to the governments of Ontario and British Columbia who continue to prioritize seniors and the growing need for long term care. Speaker 100:01:50The recent funding announcements recognize the exceptional cost pressures operators in long term care have experienced over the past 4 years. As for our retirement business, we continue to benefit from strong demand and limited new supply in many of our key markets. Construction starts of new retirement residences are at multiyear low and combined with an aging population, we anticipate notable occupancy gains across our retirement platform in the coming years. Our success would not be possible without our 12,000 strong team members who are our greatest strength and at the core of everything we do. Creating a workspace where they can put their passion for their work into action is something we strive for each every day. Speaker 100:02:30Moving to Slide 5, our results show the significant progress we have made in closing the gap left behind by the pandemic. Supporting our results for fully occupied long term care homes with higher revenue from preferred accommodations and significantly reduced staffing agency cost as a result of our ability to fill vacant positions with our own team members. The strong results also reflect notable one time government funding from both Ontario and BC. As a result, our same property NOI increased by $27,600,000 to $63,900,000 year over year. The recent funding announcements from the government of Ontario and BC are expected to have a lasting impact on the sector and well-being of our Canadian seniors. Speaker 100:03:15A total of $13,400,000 of one time funding in Ontario and $13,600,000 of retroactive funding from the government of British Columbia are included in our Q1, twenty twenty four results. Essentially, the governments are reimbursing us for the remaining unfunded pandemic costs and recognizing the significant cost escalations due to inflation over the past 4 years. Recent funding announcements also include enhancements to the construction funding subsidy of up to $35 per day for next 25 years and a 6.6% increase in the level of care funding. The level of care funding increase includes a 4.5% increase in the flow through funding envelope and an 11% increase in the other accommodation funding envelope. Where a shortfall in recent years put significant pressure on long term care operators. Speaker 100:04:04Supported by these improvements, we expect to add up to 400 new care staff positions across Sienna. The funding improvements will benefit seniors in Ontario and have a positive impact on the redevelopment momentum of Ontario's older long term care homes. This will also support the Ontario government's important goal of building new and redeveloped long term care spaces and enable us to advance our redevelopment program. As such, we are very pleased to move forward with the redevelopment of a Cedarville long term care home in Keswick, Ontario, where we expect to start construction in Q4, 2024. Cedarville is located on a campus comprising of 130 suite retirement residents and a 60 Bed Class B Long Term Care Home. Speaker 100:04:48We will redevelop the current long term care home into a new state of the art community that can accommodate 160 residents. The project has an expected development yield of approximately 8%. This will be our 3rd long term care redevelopment project adding to the 2 projects currently under construction in North Bay and Brantford, which we expect to complete in the second half of twenty twenty five. Combined, these projects will support the government's important goal of building new and redeveloped long term care spaces Speaker 200:05:22for the benefit of Ontario seniors. Speaker 100:05:22Moving to retirement, at our retirement operations, same property occupancy grew to 88.1% in Q1. This was an improvement of 30 basis points year over year. Monthly same property occupancy increased for the past 3 months and reached 88.9% in April. We are making good progress in leasing suites at our recently completed retirement residence in Niagara Falls, which is currently in a lease up. Looking forward, we continue to make steady progress towards a goal of stabilized occupancy of 95%. Speaker 100:05:54This is a level that is aligned with industry wide forecast for the Canadian retirement sector. An aging population and limited new supply as a result of very few construction starts in recent years are the key reasons for this expected increase in occupancy. Our intensified focus on homes with lower occupancy in addition to annual rent increases contributed to the increase in same property NOI year over year in the quarter. Now moving to Slide 9, team member engagement and retention are a core focus of our initiatives. We're always looking for new ways to differentiate Ciena in a competitive labor market. Speaker 100:06:31In Q1, we introduced a program called Learning Bites. Through this program, we are providing 1 hour of learning per month to all of our team members in addition to their job specific training. This is just one of many initiatives that we introduced at Ciena in recent years to ensure we are aligned with our 12,000 strong team members. At a signature program, SOAR and Spark remain very successful. The 2nd round of Spark, Ciena's version of Dragon's Den is well underway. Speaker 100:06:59175 ideas were submitted in the most recent round and we are currently implementing pilot programs for those top submissions of our finalists. Ideas range from National Hiding Day to creating digital resident folders and more. With respect to SOAR, our share ownership program, which is unique in the Canadian senior living sector, thousands of eligible team members have now received shares with the next round of awards taking place later this month. We believe that initiatives like these were the key drivers for the 11% reduction in turnover in 2023. Combined with various recruitment programs, including the placement of internationally educated nurses, these initiatives played a significant role in reducing our reliance on staffing agencies. Speaker 100:07:43Agencies costs have returned to pre pandemic level and it is our goal to keep agency staffing at a minimum, which will have a lasting impact on Ciena's culture and our residents quality of life. With that, I'll turn it over to David for an update on our results. Speaker 300:07:59Thank you, Nitin, and good morning, everyone. I will start on Slide 11 for financial results. In Q1 2024, total adjusted revenues increased by 19.9% year over year to $239,400,000 This increase was largely due to rental rate and occupancy growth as well as increased care revenue in our Retirement segment and significant one time and retroactive funding in addition to annual inflationary funding increases and higher preferred accommodation revenue in our LTC segment. Total net operating income increased to $63,500,000 this quarter compared to $36,300,000 in Q1 2023. NOI in our Long Term Care segment increased by $27,000,000 in Q1 2024 due to significant one time and retroactive funding, higher preferred accommodation revenues and lower staffing agency costs. Speaker 300:08:52Year over year, we reduced our total agency staffing costs from approximately $10,300,000 in Q1 2023 to $6,100,000 in Q1 2024. Agency costs, which are predominantly covered by flow through government funding, have now returned to pre pandemic levels. In our Retirement segment, same property NOI increased by $500,000 in Q1 2024 compared to last year, primarily as a result of rate growth as well as improved occupancy. Moving to Slide 12. During Q1 2024, operating funds from operations increased by 99.1% to $36,700,000 compared to last year, primarily due to higher NOI. Speaker 300:09:37OFFO per share increased by 98.8 percent to $0.53 in Q1 2024. Adjusted funds from operations increased by 94.4 percent to $35,400,000 compared to last year. The increase was due to higher OFFO, offset by a decrease in construction funding income. AFFO per share increased by 94 point 8% to $0.485 in Q1 2024. In line with our results, our AFFO payout ratio decreased to 48.2% in Q1 2024. Speaker 300:10:12Moving to Slide 13. With respect to our debt metrics, we have seen notable improvements and further strengthened our balance sheet. We maintained ample liquidity with $303,000,000 at the end of Q1 2024 and extended the weighted average term to maturity for our debt to 5.7 years from 5 years in Q1 2023. Our debt to adjusted EBITDA was 7.1 times at the end of Q1 20 24 compared to 8.8 times at the end of Q1 2023 and our debt to service coverage ratio was 3.4x in Q1 2024 compared to 1.8x in Q1 2023. We ended Q1 twenty twenty four with a debt to adjusted gross book value of 44.3 percent $1,000,000,000 of unencumbered assets. Speaker 300:11:00This provides financial flexibility and supports our refinancing initiatives at attractive rates. In particular, as we're actively exploring opportunities to refinancing our upcoming debt expiry in the Q4 of 2024. We have the ability to refinance a portion of our expiring debt with proceeds from a new financing or up financing of assets with CMHC insured mortgages at interest rates significantly below those of other financing options. Our strong financial position will also support the redevelopment of our older long term care homes. We will continue to prudently manage capital and stagger construction starts to ensure our debt ratios remain strong as we support the Ontario government with this important initiative. Speaker 300:11:46With that, I will turn the call back to Nitin for his closing remarks. Speaker 100:11:50Thank you, David. There's tremendous growth potential in Canadian senior living with the oldest baby boomer turning 80 in just 2 years and life expectancy continue to increase. At the same time, waitlist for long term care and getting longer and the supply of new senior living accommodations continues to decline. We're grateful to the governments of Ontario and British Columbia who recognize the growing need of long term care in the recent funding announcements and continue to prioritize seniors. We expect that these updates will have a lasting impact on the health and well-being of our residents and our team members. Speaker 100:12:24As a result, we expect long term care NOI for the full year to grow in the high single digit percentage range compared to last year. With respect to retirement operations, we expect same property NOI to benefit from continued occupancy and rental rate growth as well as other initiatives to optimize revenue and grow in the high single digit percentage range. A year ago, we first outlined in detail how our initiatives to grow occupancy, reduce agency staff and address government funding shortfalls were expected to have a positive impact on our financial results and our ability to grow and serve more seniors for generations to come. Since then, quarter after quarter, we have seen growth in both businesses, affirming our commitment to a diversified approach to owning both retirement and long term care homes. Combined with the flexibility provided by a very strong balance sheet and the continued support of our stakeholders, 2024 is shaping up to become the year of senior living. Speaker 100:13:22Fueling this momentum is our belief that as human beings, the 2 things we love the most in our lives, our parents and our kids. And this is demonstrated daily by our team members who strive to bring happiness into the lives of our residents. At one of our communities in Kingston, Ontario, our team made a resident's dream to watch the Montreal Canadians play come true. Although hockey may be a sensitive topic for Toronto Maple Leaf fans right now, the game is at the heart of many Canadians, including our resident, Keith, who is a lifelong fan of Montreal Canadians. While rarely missing a game, he had never seen them live. Speaker 100:13:58To his surprise, our team had been planning for months to take him to Ottawa to watch his favorite team pay the senators. With tickets, a jersey and the assistance from our Espirito Royale team who provided a limo, Keith was chauffeured to Ottawa in style. Witnessing his beloved hockey team in action was a lifelong dream fulfilled and a day this resident will remember forever. This story highlights the impact of a team that is engaged and committed to living Ciena's purpose and values. We see inspiring stories each and every day of residents like Keith and the team members who are dedicated to helping residents live meaningful lives. Speaker 100:14:36On behalf of our entire management team and our Board of Directors, I want to thank all of you for your continued support and commitment. We are now pleased to answer any questions you may have. Operator00:14:47Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. Your first question comes from the line of Jonathan Kelcher with TD Cowen. Your line is open. Speaker 400:15:21Thanks. Good morning. Speaker 300:15:24Good morning. Speaker 400:15:26First question, just on the long term care funding, the 11.5% increase and how we should think about that going forward. If we back out all of the prior period funding from 2023, does Q1 NOI become a pretty good run rate? Speaker 100:15:47That would be a good way of thinking about it. And the other way is this is the 11.5 is a catch up of last 4 years. I mean, our whole thesis has been that government's funding always stayed in line with CPI. And I think as you plan forward, the funding increases would be more closer to CPI. This was a one time catch up for last 4 years. Speaker 400:16:10Okay. And that kind of answers my second question. And then so I guess flipping over to the retirement side, margins, same property margins were actually down a little bit in the quarter. Was there anything one time in there? And how did the retirement results look versus your internal expectations? Speaker 100:16:32Yes. I mean, there were some technical things in it. For example, this is a leap year, so we have one extra day of expenses. The Good Friday happened in March versus April. And I think, we can say part of it was that. Speaker 100:16:44But the reality is we have some work we need to do in better expense management. What we are happy to see is the rental rate growth and we are happy to see some positive momentum in occupancy. But we have quite a bit of work to do over the next 3 months to ensure that what got us from 76% to 88%, we know is not going to get us to 95%. So we'll have to do things some things differently and we are on it. Speaker 400:17:09Okay. Thanks. I'll turn it back. Thank you. Operator00:17:14Your next question comes from the line of Loren Kolmar with Desjardins. Your line is open. Speaker 400:17:20Thanks. Good morning, everybody. Maybe you guys were very kind and put out the fact that you expect to get to 95% occupancy in the retirement portfolio. And if I look at some of the Canadian forecast, they're expecting that in about 2026 at a national level. I was just wondering if there was anything that you're seeing right now that would indicate why you couldn't achieve that level of occupancy by that point in Speaker 100:17:44time? So we haven't said that we will not, but we also have not said that we will. So I think this is more around, we are not ready to give an outlook that far out. And as it's an IMD and as well, we're going to focus more on outlook on same property NOI because as important in occupancies, I'm not walking away from that. Our focus is NOI. Speaker 100:18:05So if you get to 93% or 94% and have a much better NOI than 96%, because it will take us a lot more in marketing and sales expense, we will stop at 94. So that's and so the idea is not, try to get to a point and give an output which then we are explaining every quarter why we can't get there at that time. So it's more our comfort level and giving a forecast out that far. Speaker 400:18:31Okay. I promise I won't ask about it again next quarter. And then on the development side, so you mentioned, I guess, now with Keswick coming on, you're going to have 3 ongoing LTC redevelopments. How many of you are you comfortable carrying at one time? Speaker 300:18:51Yes. So Lauren, thanks for that question. We're pretty comfortable with the 3 that we currently have on hand right now. We're trying to stagger our construction starts. So we finished off Elgin Mills at the end of last year. Speaker 300:19:06North Bay and Brantford are well underway. And we think that by the end of Q4 of this year, starting Keswick would make sense just from a funding standpoint. Speaker 400:19:19And do all of a sudden do all of the developments now make sense and now you just kind of got to pick and choose which ones to initiate? Or are there still some developments where even with the funding improvements, it's the numbers still don't work? Speaker 100:19:38The more projects that work and there are a bunch of projects that work in the last funding announcement, so we started to with this funding announcement, another one works. So we started with that one. We have few others in the pipeline. The GTA one continues to be challenging, but there's significant land value in GT Homes as well. So we have options open to us. Speaker 100:19:56But the idea is, I think, with each funding announcement, there are projects that will progress. And the bigger thing with this funding announcement and catching up to inflation because the whole idea behind long term care was this is infrastructure kind steady stable cash flow and did not happen for 4 years. And as we know, a lot of capital left our sector. So there's been less development than people would have liked, including the government. And I think catching up to this and going back to that 30 year run rate where the funding always stayed up with inflation, we feel very optimistic that is going to bring Okay. Speaker 100:20:33And Speaker 400:20:39Okay. And then maybe just last one for me on the retirement same property NOI outlook. Obviously, a little bit in or in the low single digits this quarter. What's sort of underpinning that? Is it mostly recovery in margin or occupancy or both? Speaker 300:20:57Are you referring to Q1 or are you referring to the full year? Speaker 400:21:01To the full year, sorry, for high single digits. Speaker 300:21:04Yes. I mean, we're expected our guidance is in the high single digit range. That's going to come from a growth in occupancy as well as rental rate growth, which for the So that So that's going to help as well. And it's also going to come from additional revenues such as care revenues as well. Okay. Speaker 400:21:30Thank you so much. I will turn it back. Thank you. Operator00:21:38Your next question comes from the line of Himanshu Gupta with Scotiabank. Speaker 200:21:44Thank you and good morning. So just on the LTC guidance, I mean, obviously, you're saying high single digit NOI growth this year. For the next year, should we say that it's going back to low single digit? Speaker 100:22:00I think it's too early to we haven't gone out to next year's guidance on that. And Manjush, other than the fact, I think that going back to the question that Jonathan asked, the 11.8% is because the inflation was up nearly 18% and funding was up 4% or 5% in the last 4 years. So, if inflation next year is 2% or 3%, I think we should expect the funding to be in that range as well. Other than care funding, which is expected to keep going up because we need lot more care hours to support the failure of seniors coming into long term care. But I think it's too early because we cannot be predicting inflation for next year. Speaker 200:22:41Got it. And how's the visibility on this high single digit? Could there be an upside to this number? Or are we there, I mean, in terms of visibility? Speaker 300:22:52Yes. We feel comfortable with our current guidance of high single digits. We are as we mentioned, we are getting the 11.5% increase. But keep in mind that some of that is to cover inflationary impacts as well between 2.5% to 3%. So when you take all that together, we think that once you exclude the one time funding relating to prior years, we would be in the range of the high single digits for long term care. Speaker 200:23:24Got it. Okay. And then just on the retirement home side, I'm looking at the NOI margins. And I mean, it looks like the usage of agency staffing has come back to pre pandemic levels. I mean, you're seeing that 4% to 5% rental growth as well and occupancy moving as well. Speaker 200:23:45Why it's not showing up in the NOI margins yet? Speaker 300:23:51Yes. No. So again, as Nitin mentioned, we like there was a couple of anomalies within the quarter, first being leap year compared to the last year as well as Good Friday being in March of this year versus April of last year. So that definitely impacted our margins by about 1%. And in addition to that, I think that like we are working towards growing those margins and it's going to take 3 months or a little bit longer for it to pick back up. Speaker 200:24:25Okay. So 23% NOI margins was around like 36%. Do you think we're still looking for 100 basis point expansion for the full year? Speaker 100:24:36Himanshu, as we reflect in the MD and A as well, we're going to start focusing on same property NOI growth versus giving margin forecast. So I unfortunately can't really guide you towards a margin number. Speaker 200:24:49Okay, fair enough. Okay, thank you. Maybe the last question is on the Castric. I think the construction will be started or going to be started. Just getting a sense, is there any NOI downtime while the construction is ongoing? Speaker 200:25:05I mean, overall, I mean, do you have a sense of how it's going to impact the SFO in the near term and in the long term, what it is once it is done? Speaker 100:25:14Sorry, is the question would during construction time, would there be any impact on NOI? Is that what your question was? Speaker 200:25:20Yes. That's right. Speaker 100:25:22In this case, it would not have because all of our projects have been greenfield. So even this building where it's being built is on the same site, but the site is actually close to 40 acres. So there's a lot of land available. And so it's it is not impacting any operations from a team member's perspective or resident perspective as well at all. And similar to North Bend Brantford, we're going to start construction. Speaker 100:25:43It will take a couple of years to build it. And when it's ready, we will move the residents. And in this case, they frankly would be moving 100 meters from their current place. So even the move would be much, much simpler. So no impact at all. Speaker 200:25:56Okay, fair enough. Thank you, guys. I'll turn back. Operator00:26:00Your next question comes from the line of Puneet Bir with RBC Capital Markets. Speaker 500:26:08Thanks. Good morning. With the long term care funding increases, when you strip out the retroactive and all the one time stuff that came through this quarter, does the I guess the operational funding or the other accommodation increase in envelope funding there, Does this start to get you back to the pre pandemic levels of NOI in long term care? And I'm not sure if you sort of have a timeline on when that happens. Speaker 100:26:37Thank you, Pammi. Good morning. And yes, this does bring us back to a time catching up to inflation. And that was the whole advocacy behind this is that no one is looking for long term care to become technology sector where there's big up and down. This is infrastructure, stable, steady cash flow year over year growing with inflation. Speaker 100:27:00This catches up for the last 4 years and our expectation moving forward would be that it will continue to stay with inflation. This was a one and all event in the last 30 years and hoping it will not happen again. Speaker 500:27:14Okay. And I know you're not you don't want to maybe focus too much on occupancy and the margins, but more so on the absolute NOI. But looking back to pre pandemic levels of long term care, I think you were tracking around 17% in the NOI margin. But given how the nature of the funding, a lot of this being increased flow through, would those be unrealistic? Like would that 17% sort of be unrealistic even with the new OA funding? Speaker 300:27:48Yes. That's a great question, Pammi. And yes, we wouldn't expect to get back to 17% margins. The amount of direct care and program funding that the government has provided over the last several years has been quite significant, over 40 percent increase. So we would anticipate that our margins would decline in the long term care segment. Speaker 300:28:13But that being said, our focus is really on margin dollars, not margin percentage. Speaker 500:28:20Right. Okay. Last one for me. From a capital allocation standpoint, nice to see another project moving forward in long term care. But given the more stable environment that we are now in and with maybe some of the updates or additions to management, is it getting you more confident perhaps in putting capital to work from an acquisition standpoint in the retirement space? Speaker 100:28:46Yes, for sure. I mean, we have not stopped looking even during this time. Our biggest acquisition was a year and a half back. So we continue to look for opportunities. There have been some things which have been out, but there are nothing that which fits that well with us. Speaker 100:29:04But we'll continue to look and to your point, I think as capital is returning to the long term care space and retirement space, we'll continue to invest both through acquisitions and development. But obviously, the deal has to make sense in the short and medium term from an accretion perspective. Speaker 500:29:25Got it. Thanks very much, Nitin. I will turn it back. Speaker 100:29:29Thank you. Operator00:29:34And your next question comes from the line of Jake Stivaletti with CIBC. Your line is open. Speaker 600:29:43Hey guys, good morning. Good morning. So just looking at OFFO, so excluding the retroactive funding, can we think of the adjusted FFO of that $0.27 as a starting point for 2024 run rate kind of before we had any growth? Speaker 300:30:01Yes. That I think that would be a good way to look at it. That would be a good starting point for the balance of 2024. Speaker 600:30:11Okay. And then I think I saw correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw that you have about 60 60% or 62% of your property level mortgages, CMHC insured. Is there a goal to increase that or anything in mind regarding that? Speaker 300:30:27Yes. We do plan yes, you're right. 62% of our mortgages are insured with CMHC financing. We would we do continue to have other properties that are currently unencumbered or that they're low leverage that we would add some more CMHC financing to that. Speaker 600:30:50And that's probably the most attractive rates you're seeing, right, is with the CMHC insured debt? Speaker 300:30:56That's correct. Those are the most attractive rates currently in the market right now, which is why we're pursuing and we have active applications ongoing with CMHC right now. Speaker 100:31:07And we have seen this market change. We did a big acquisition in 2018 where CMHC rates were very compelling. And 4 months later, unsecured, money was actually cheaper than CMHC. So we pivoted very quickly. And I think our to David's point, our focus is we have the ability to borrow more in CMHC. Speaker 100:31:26But the biggest thing for us is really the flexibility of between secured financing and unsecured financing. So, we have multiple options as we get closer to the November timeline, to refinance the debt. Speaker 600:31:41Got it. Okay. That's very helpful. I'll turn it back. Operator00:31:46Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our Q and A session and today's call. Thank you all for joining. You may now disconnect.Read moreRemove AdsPowered by Conference Call Audio Live Call not available Earnings Conference CallSienna Senior Living Q1 202400:00 / 00:00Speed:1x1.25x1.5x2xRemove Ads Earnings DocumentsSlide DeckInterim report Sienna Senior Living Earnings HeadlinesSienna Senior Living (TSE:SIA) Share Price Passes Above Fifty Day Moving Average - Here's WhyApril 3, 2025 | americanbankingnews.comHere’s How Many Shares of Sienna Senior Living You Should Own to Get $500 in Monthly DividendsMarch 27, 2025 | msn.comTrump’s policies mean HUGE income for investorsThanks to a Trump win… Investors have a HUGE opportunity at new income. The floodgates for U.S. oil production have re-opened... And smart investors will have the opportunity to swim in the profits! April 10, 2025 | The Oxford Club (Ad)We Ran A Stock Scan For Earnings Growth And Sienna Senior Living (TSE:SIA) Passed With EaseMarch 18, 2025 | uk.finance.yahoo.comTD Securities Remains a Buy on Sienna Senior Living (SIA)March 3, 2025 | markets.businessinsider.comCIBC Reaffirms Their Hold Rating on Sienna Senior Living (SIA)March 1, 2025 | markets.businessinsider.comSee More Sienna Senior Living Headlines Get Earnings Announcements in your inboxWant to stay updated on the latest earnings announcements and upcoming reports for companies like Sienna Senior Living? Sign up for Earnings360's daily newsletter to receive timely earnings updates on Sienna Senior Living and other key companies, straight to your email. Email Address About Sienna Senior LivingSienna Senior Living (TSE:SIA) Inc is one of the largest owners of seniors' housing, the largest licensed long-term care operator in Ontario, and a provider of services across the full continuum of care. The firm operates solely within Canada. The company is comprised of the following main business segments, LTC Business, Retirement and Other. LTC business division consists of consists of 35 LTC residences in the Province of Ontario, eight seniors' living residences located in the Province of British Columbia and the LTC management services business. Retirement segment includes 27 RRs, five of which are located in the Province of British Columbia and 22 of which are located in the Province of Ontario, and the RR management services business. The group derives majority of revenue from LTC segment.View Sienna Senior Living ProfileRead more More Earnings Resources from MarketBeat Earnings Tools Today's Earnings Tomorrow's Earnings Next Week's Earnings Upcoming Earnings Calls Earnings Newsletter Earnings Call Transcripts Earnings Beats & Misses Corporate Guidance Earnings Screener Earnings By Country U.S. Earnings Reports Canadian Earnings Reports U.K. Earnings Reports Latest Articles Lamb Weston Stock Rises, Earnings Provide Calm Amidst ChaosIntuitive Machines Gains After Earnings Beat, NASA Missions AheadCintas Delivers Earnings Beat, Signals More Growth AheadNike Stock Dips on Earnings: Analysts Weigh in on What’s NextAfter Massive Post Earnings Fall, Does Hope Remain for MongoDB?Semtech Rallies on Earnings Beat—Is There More Upside?These 3 Q1 Earnings Winners Will Go Higher Upcoming Earnings Bank of New York Mellon (4/11/2025)BlackRock (4/11/2025)JPMorgan Chase & Co. 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There are 7 speakers on the call. Operator00:00:00Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Sienna Senior Living Incorporated First Quarter 2024 Conference Call. Today's call is hosted by Newton Jain, President and Chief Executive Officer and David Hong, Chief Financial Officer of Ciena Senior Living Incorporated. Please be aware that certain statements or information discussed today are forward looking and actual results could differ materially. The company does not undertake to update any forward looking statement or information. Please refer to the forward looking information and risk factors sections in the company's public filings, including its most recent MD and A and AIF for more information. Operator00:00:41You will also find a more full time discussion of the company's results in its MD and A and financial statements for the period, which are posted on SEDAR Plus and can be found on the company's website, cianaliving. Ca. Today's call is being recorded and a replay will be available. Instructions for accessing the call are posted on the company's website and the details are provided in the company's news release. The company has posted slides, which accompany the host's remarks on the company website under Events and Presentation. Operator00:01:24With that, I will turn the call to Mr. Jain. Please go ahead, Mr. Jain. Speaker 100:01:30Thank you, Kath. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us on our call today. We are off to a great start in this year. Our first quarter results highlight that we have transitioned into a period of stability and growth. We are grateful to the governments of Ontario and British Columbia who continue to prioritize seniors and the growing need for long term care. Speaker 100:01:50The recent funding announcements recognize the exceptional cost pressures operators in long term care have experienced over the past 4 years. As for our retirement business, we continue to benefit from strong demand and limited new supply in many of our key markets. Construction starts of new retirement residences are at multiyear low and combined with an aging population, we anticipate notable occupancy gains across our retirement platform in the coming years. Our success would not be possible without our 12,000 strong team members who are our greatest strength and at the core of everything we do. Creating a workspace where they can put their passion for their work into action is something we strive for each every day. Speaker 100:02:30Moving to Slide 5, our results show the significant progress we have made in closing the gap left behind by the pandemic. Supporting our results for fully occupied long term care homes with higher revenue from preferred accommodations and significantly reduced staffing agency cost as a result of our ability to fill vacant positions with our own team members. The strong results also reflect notable one time government funding from both Ontario and BC. As a result, our same property NOI increased by $27,600,000 to $63,900,000 year over year. The recent funding announcements from the government of Ontario and BC are expected to have a lasting impact on the sector and well-being of our Canadian seniors. Speaker 100:03:15A total of $13,400,000 of one time funding in Ontario and $13,600,000 of retroactive funding from the government of British Columbia are included in our Q1, twenty twenty four results. Essentially, the governments are reimbursing us for the remaining unfunded pandemic costs and recognizing the significant cost escalations due to inflation over the past 4 years. Recent funding announcements also include enhancements to the construction funding subsidy of up to $35 per day for next 25 years and a 6.6% increase in the level of care funding. The level of care funding increase includes a 4.5% increase in the flow through funding envelope and an 11% increase in the other accommodation funding envelope. Where a shortfall in recent years put significant pressure on long term care operators. Speaker 100:04:04Supported by these improvements, we expect to add up to 400 new care staff positions across Sienna. The funding improvements will benefit seniors in Ontario and have a positive impact on the redevelopment momentum of Ontario's older long term care homes. This will also support the Ontario government's important goal of building new and redeveloped long term care spaces and enable us to advance our redevelopment program. As such, we are very pleased to move forward with the redevelopment of a Cedarville long term care home in Keswick, Ontario, where we expect to start construction in Q4, 2024. Cedarville is located on a campus comprising of 130 suite retirement residents and a 60 Bed Class B Long Term Care Home. Speaker 100:04:48We will redevelop the current long term care home into a new state of the art community that can accommodate 160 residents. The project has an expected development yield of approximately 8%. This will be our 3rd long term care redevelopment project adding to the 2 projects currently under construction in North Bay and Brantford, which we expect to complete in the second half of twenty twenty five. Combined, these projects will support the government's important goal of building new and redeveloped long term care spaces Speaker 200:05:22for the benefit of Ontario seniors. Speaker 100:05:22Moving to retirement, at our retirement operations, same property occupancy grew to 88.1% in Q1. This was an improvement of 30 basis points year over year. Monthly same property occupancy increased for the past 3 months and reached 88.9% in April. We are making good progress in leasing suites at our recently completed retirement residence in Niagara Falls, which is currently in a lease up. Looking forward, we continue to make steady progress towards a goal of stabilized occupancy of 95%. Speaker 100:05:54This is a level that is aligned with industry wide forecast for the Canadian retirement sector. An aging population and limited new supply as a result of very few construction starts in recent years are the key reasons for this expected increase in occupancy. Our intensified focus on homes with lower occupancy in addition to annual rent increases contributed to the increase in same property NOI year over year in the quarter. Now moving to Slide 9, team member engagement and retention are a core focus of our initiatives. We're always looking for new ways to differentiate Ciena in a competitive labor market. Speaker 100:06:31In Q1, we introduced a program called Learning Bites. Through this program, we are providing 1 hour of learning per month to all of our team members in addition to their job specific training. This is just one of many initiatives that we introduced at Ciena in recent years to ensure we are aligned with our 12,000 strong team members. At a signature program, SOAR and Spark remain very successful. The 2nd round of Spark, Ciena's version of Dragon's Den is well underway. Speaker 100:06:59175 ideas were submitted in the most recent round and we are currently implementing pilot programs for those top submissions of our finalists. Ideas range from National Hiding Day to creating digital resident folders and more. With respect to SOAR, our share ownership program, which is unique in the Canadian senior living sector, thousands of eligible team members have now received shares with the next round of awards taking place later this month. We believe that initiatives like these were the key drivers for the 11% reduction in turnover in 2023. Combined with various recruitment programs, including the placement of internationally educated nurses, these initiatives played a significant role in reducing our reliance on staffing agencies. Speaker 100:07:43Agencies costs have returned to pre pandemic level and it is our goal to keep agency staffing at a minimum, which will have a lasting impact on Ciena's culture and our residents quality of life. With that, I'll turn it over to David for an update on our results. Speaker 300:07:59Thank you, Nitin, and good morning, everyone. I will start on Slide 11 for financial results. In Q1 2024, total adjusted revenues increased by 19.9% year over year to $239,400,000 This increase was largely due to rental rate and occupancy growth as well as increased care revenue in our Retirement segment and significant one time and retroactive funding in addition to annual inflationary funding increases and higher preferred accommodation revenue in our LTC segment. Total net operating income increased to $63,500,000 this quarter compared to $36,300,000 in Q1 2023. NOI in our Long Term Care segment increased by $27,000,000 in Q1 2024 due to significant one time and retroactive funding, higher preferred accommodation revenues and lower staffing agency costs. Speaker 300:08:52Year over year, we reduced our total agency staffing costs from approximately $10,300,000 in Q1 2023 to $6,100,000 in Q1 2024. Agency costs, which are predominantly covered by flow through government funding, have now returned to pre pandemic levels. In our Retirement segment, same property NOI increased by $500,000 in Q1 2024 compared to last year, primarily as a result of rate growth as well as improved occupancy. Moving to Slide 12. During Q1 2024, operating funds from operations increased by 99.1% to $36,700,000 compared to last year, primarily due to higher NOI. Speaker 300:09:37OFFO per share increased by 98.8 percent to $0.53 in Q1 2024. Adjusted funds from operations increased by 94.4 percent to $35,400,000 compared to last year. The increase was due to higher OFFO, offset by a decrease in construction funding income. AFFO per share increased by 94 point 8% to $0.485 in Q1 2024. In line with our results, our AFFO payout ratio decreased to 48.2% in Q1 2024. Speaker 300:10:12Moving to Slide 13. With respect to our debt metrics, we have seen notable improvements and further strengthened our balance sheet. We maintained ample liquidity with $303,000,000 at the end of Q1 2024 and extended the weighted average term to maturity for our debt to 5.7 years from 5 years in Q1 2023. Our debt to adjusted EBITDA was 7.1 times at the end of Q1 20 24 compared to 8.8 times at the end of Q1 2023 and our debt to service coverage ratio was 3.4x in Q1 2024 compared to 1.8x in Q1 2023. We ended Q1 twenty twenty four with a debt to adjusted gross book value of 44.3 percent $1,000,000,000 of unencumbered assets. Speaker 300:11:00This provides financial flexibility and supports our refinancing initiatives at attractive rates. In particular, as we're actively exploring opportunities to refinancing our upcoming debt expiry in the Q4 of 2024. We have the ability to refinance a portion of our expiring debt with proceeds from a new financing or up financing of assets with CMHC insured mortgages at interest rates significantly below those of other financing options. Our strong financial position will also support the redevelopment of our older long term care homes. We will continue to prudently manage capital and stagger construction starts to ensure our debt ratios remain strong as we support the Ontario government with this important initiative. Speaker 300:11:46With that, I will turn the call back to Nitin for his closing remarks. Speaker 100:11:50Thank you, David. There's tremendous growth potential in Canadian senior living with the oldest baby boomer turning 80 in just 2 years and life expectancy continue to increase. At the same time, waitlist for long term care and getting longer and the supply of new senior living accommodations continues to decline. We're grateful to the governments of Ontario and British Columbia who recognize the growing need of long term care in the recent funding announcements and continue to prioritize seniors. We expect that these updates will have a lasting impact on the health and well-being of our residents and our team members. Speaker 100:12:24As a result, we expect long term care NOI for the full year to grow in the high single digit percentage range compared to last year. With respect to retirement operations, we expect same property NOI to benefit from continued occupancy and rental rate growth as well as other initiatives to optimize revenue and grow in the high single digit percentage range. A year ago, we first outlined in detail how our initiatives to grow occupancy, reduce agency staff and address government funding shortfalls were expected to have a positive impact on our financial results and our ability to grow and serve more seniors for generations to come. Since then, quarter after quarter, we have seen growth in both businesses, affirming our commitment to a diversified approach to owning both retirement and long term care homes. Combined with the flexibility provided by a very strong balance sheet and the continued support of our stakeholders, 2024 is shaping up to become the year of senior living. Speaker 100:13:22Fueling this momentum is our belief that as human beings, the 2 things we love the most in our lives, our parents and our kids. And this is demonstrated daily by our team members who strive to bring happiness into the lives of our residents. At one of our communities in Kingston, Ontario, our team made a resident's dream to watch the Montreal Canadians play come true. Although hockey may be a sensitive topic for Toronto Maple Leaf fans right now, the game is at the heart of many Canadians, including our resident, Keith, who is a lifelong fan of Montreal Canadians. While rarely missing a game, he had never seen them live. Speaker 100:13:58To his surprise, our team had been planning for months to take him to Ottawa to watch his favorite team pay the senators. With tickets, a jersey and the assistance from our Espirito Royale team who provided a limo, Keith was chauffeured to Ottawa in style. Witnessing his beloved hockey team in action was a lifelong dream fulfilled and a day this resident will remember forever. This story highlights the impact of a team that is engaged and committed to living Ciena's purpose and values. We see inspiring stories each and every day of residents like Keith and the team members who are dedicated to helping residents live meaningful lives. Speaker 100:14:36On behalf of our entire management team and our Board of Directors, I want to thank all of you for your continued support and commitment. We are now pleased to answer any questions you may have. Operator00:14:47Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. Your first question comes from the line of Jonathan Kelcher with TD Cowen. Your line is open. Speaker 400:15:21Thanks. Good morning. Speaker 300:15:24Good morning. Speaker 400:15:26First question, just on the long term care funding, the 11.5% increase and how we should think about that going forward. If we back out all of the prior period funding from 2023, does Q1 NOI become a pretty good run rate? Speaker 100:15:47That would be a good way of thinking about it. And the other way is this is the 11.5 is a catch up of last 4 years. I mean, our whole thesis has been that government's funding always stayed in line with CPI. And I think as you plan forward, the funding increases would be more closer to CPI. This was a one time catch up for last 4 years. Speaker 400:16:10Okay. And that kind of answers my second question. And then so I guess flipping over to the retirement side, margins, same property margins were actually down a little bit in the quarter. Was there anything one time in there? And how did the retirement results look versus your internal expectations? Speaker 100:16:32Yes. I mean, there were some technical things in it. For example, this is a leap year, so we have one extra day of expenses. The Good Friday happened in March versus April. And I think, we can say part of it was that. Speaker 100:16:44But the reality is we have some work we need to do in better expense management. What we are happy to see is the rental rate growth and we are happy to see some positive momentum in occupancy. But we have quite a bit of work to do over the next 3 months to ensure that what got us from 76% to 88%, we know is not going to get us to 95%. So we'll have to do things some things differently and we are on it. Speaker 400:17:09Okay. Thanks. I'll turn it back. Thank you. Operator00:17:14Your next question comes from the line of Loren Kolmar with Desjardins. Your line is open. Speaker 400:17:20Thanks. Good morning, everybody. Maybe you guys were very kind and put out the fact that you expect to get to 95% occupancy in the retirement portfolio. And if I look at some of the Canadian forecast, they're expecting that in about 2026 at a national level. I was just wondering if there was anything that you're seeing right now that would indicate why you couldn't achieve that level of occupancy by that point in Speaker 100:17:44time? So we haven't said that we will not, but we also have not said that we will. So I think this is more around, we are not ready to give an outlook that far out. And as it's an IMD and as well, we're going to focus more on outlook on same property NOI because as important in occupancies, I'm not walking away from that. Our focus is NOI. Speaker 100:18:05So if you get to 93% or 94% and have a much better NOI than 96%, because it will take us a lot more in marketing and sales expense, we will stop at 94. So that's and so the idea is not, try to get to a point and give an output which then we are explaining every quarter why we can't get there at that time. So it's more our comfort level and giving a forecast out that far. Speaker 400:18:31Okay. I promise I won't ask about it again next quarter. And then on the development side, so you mentioned, I guess, now with Keswick coming on, you're going to have 3 ongoing LTC redevelopments. How many of you are you comfortable carrying at one time? Speaker 300:18:51Yes. So Lauren, thanks for that question. We're pretty comfortable with the 3 that we currently have on hand right now. We're trying to stagger our construction starts. So we finished off Elgin Mills at the end of last year. Speaker 300:19:06North Bay and Brantford are well underway. And we think that by the end of Q4 of this year, starting Keswick would make sense just from a funding standpoint. Speaker 400:19:19And do all of a sudden do all of the developments now make sense and now you just kind of got to pick and choose which ones to initiate? Or are there still some developments where even with the funding improvements, it's the numbers still don't work? Speaker 100:19:38The more projects that work and there are a bunch of projects that work in the last funding announcement, so we started to with this funding announcement, another one works. So we started with that one. We have few others in the pipeline. The GTA one continues to be challenging, but there's significant land value in GT Homes as well. So we have options open to us. Speaker 100:19:56But the idea is, I think, with each funding announcement, there are projects that will progress. And the bigger thing with this funding announcement and catching up to inflation because the whole idea behind long term care was this is infrastructure kind steady stable cash flow and did not happen for 4 years. And as we know, a lot of capital left our sector. So there's been less development than people would have liked, including the government. And I think catching up to this and going back to that 30 year run rate where the funding always stayed up with inflation, we feel very optimistic that is going to bring Okay. Speaker 100:20:33And Speaker 400:20:39Okay. And then maybe just last one for me on the retirement same property NOI outlook. Obviously, a little bit in or in the low single digits this quarter. What's sort of underpinning that? Is it mostly recovery in margin or occupancy or both? Speaker 300:20:57Are you referring to Q1 or are you referring to the full year? Speaker 400:21:01To the full year, sorry, for high single digits. Speaker 300:21:04Yes. I mean, we're expected our guidance is in the high single digit range. That's going to come from a growth in occupancy as well as rental rate growth, which for the So that So that's going to help as well. And it's also going to come from additional revenues such as care revenues as well. Okay. Speaker 400:21:30Thank you so much. I will turn it back. Thank you. Operator00:21:38Your next question comes from the line of Himanshu Gupta with Scotiabank. Speaker 200:21:44Thank you and good morning. So just on the LTC guidance, I mean, obviously, you're saying high single digit NOI growth this year. For the next year, should we say that it's going back to low single digit? Speaker 100:22:00I think it's too early to we haven't gone out to next year's guidance on that. And Manjush, other than the fact, I think that going back to the question that Jonathan asked, the 11.8% is because the inflation was up nearly 18% and funding was up 4% or 5% in the last 4 years. So, if inflation next year is 2% or 3%, I think we should expect the funding to be in that range as well. Other than care funding, which is expected to keep going up because we need lot more care hours to support the failure of seniors coming into long term care. But I think it's too early because we cannot be predicting inflation for next year. Speaker 200:22:41Got it. And how's the visibility on this high single digit? Could there be an upside to this number? Or are we there, I mean, in terms of visibility? Speaker 300:22:52Yes. We feel comfortable with our current guidance of high single digits. We are as we mentioned, we are getting the 11.5% increase. But keep in mind that some of that is to cover inflationary impacts as well between 2.5% to 3%. So when you take all that together, we think that once you exclude the one time funding relating to prior years, we would be in the range of the high single digits for long term care. Speaker 200:23:24Got it. Okay. And then just on the retirement home side, I'm looking at the NOI margins. And I mean, it looks like the usage of agency staffing has come back to pre pandemic levels. I mean, you're seeing that 4% to 5% rental growth as well and occupancy moving as well. Speaker 200:23:45Why it's not showing up in the NOI margins yet? Speaker 300:23:51Yes. No. So again, as Nitin mentioned, we like there was a couple of anomalies within the quarter, first being leap year compared to the last year as well as Good Friday being in March of this year versus April of last year. So that definitely impacted our margins by about 1%. And in addition to that, I think that like we are working towards growing those margins and it's going to take 3 months or a little bit longer for it to pick back up. Speaker 200:24:25Okay. So 23% NOI margins was around like 36%. Do you think we're still looking for 100 basis point expansion for the full year? Speaker 100:24:36Himanshu, as we reflect in the MD and A as well, we're going to start focusing on same property NOI growth versus giving margin forecast. So I unfortunately can't really guide you towards a margin number. Speaker 200:24:49Okay, fair enough. Okay, thank you. Maybe the last question is on the Castric. I think the construction will be started or going to be started. Just getting a sense, is there any NOI downtime while the construction is ongoing? Speaker 200:25:05I mean, overall, I mean, do you have a sense of how it's going to impact the SFO in the near term and in the long term, what it is once it is done? Speaker 100:25:14Sorry, is the question would during construction time, would there be any impact on NOI? Is that what your question was? Speaker 200:25:20Yes. That's right. Speaker 100:25:22In this case, it would not have because all of our projects have been greenfield. So even this building where it's being built is on the same site, but the site is actually close to 40 acres. So there's a lot of land available. And so it's it is not impacting any operations from a team member's perspective or resident perspective as well at all. And similar to North Bend Brantford, we're going to start construction. Speaker 100:25:43It will take a couple of years to build it. And when it's ready, we will move the residents. And in this case, they frankly would be moving 100 meters from their current place. So even the move would be much, much simpler. So no impact at all. Speaker 200:25:56Okay, fair enough. Thank you, guys. I'll turn back. Operator00:26:00Your next question comes from the line of Puneet Bir with RBC Capital Markets. Speaker 500:26:08Thanks. Good morning. With the long term care funding increases, when you strip out the retroactive and all the one time stuff that came through this quarter, does the I guess the operational funding or the other accommodation increase in envelope funding there, Does this start to get you back to the pre pandemic levels of NOI in long term care? And I'm not sure if you sort of have a timeline on when that happens. Speaker 100:26:37Thank you, Pammi. Good morning. And yes, this does bring us back to a time catching up to inflation. And that was the whole advocacy behind this is that no one is looking for long term care to become technology sector where there's big up and down. This is infrastructure, stable, steady cash flow year over year growing with inflation. Speaker 100:27:00This catches up for the last 4 years and our expectation moving forward would be that it will continue to stay with inflation. This was a one and all event in the last 30 years and hoping it will not happen again. Speaker 500:27:14Okay. And I know you're not you don't want to maybe focus too much on occupancy and the margins, but more so on the absolute NOI. But looking back to pre pandemic levels of long term care, I think you were tracking around 17% in the NOI margin. But given how the nature of the funding, a lot of this being increased flow through, would those be unrealistic? Like would that 17% sort of be unrealistic even with the new OA funding? Speaker 300:27:48Yes. That's a great question, Pammi. And yes, we wouldn't expect to get back to 17% margins. The amount of direct care and program funding that the government has provided over the last several years has been quite significant, over 40 percent increase. So we would anticipate that our margins would decline in the long term care segment. Speaker 300:28:13But that being said, our focus is really on margin dollars, not margin percentage. Speaker 500:28:20Right. Okay. Last one for me. From a capital allocation standpoint, nice to see another project moving forward in long term care. But given the more stable environment that we are now in and with maybe some of the updates or additions to management, is it getting you more confident perhaps in putting capital to work from an acquisition standpoint in the retirement space? Speaker 100:28:46Yes, for sure. I mean, we have not stopped looking even during this time. Our biggest acquisition was a year and a half back. So we continue to look for opportunities. There have been some things which have been out, but there are nothing that which fits that well with us. Speaker 100:29:04But we'll continue to look and to your point, I think as capital is returning to the long term care space and retirement space, we'll continue to invest both through acquisitions and development. But obviously, the deal has to make sense in the short and medium term from an accretion perspective. Speaker 500:29:25Got it. Thanks very much, Nitin. I will turn it back. Speaker 100:29:29Thank you. Operator00:29:34And your next question comes from the line of Jake Stivaletti with CIBC. Your line is open. Speaker 600:29:43Hey guys, good morning. Good morning. So just looking at OFFO, so excluding the retroactive funding, can we think of the adjusted FFO of that $0.27 as a starting point for 2024 run rate kind of before we had any growth? Speaker 300:30:01Yes. That I think that would be a good way to look at it. That would be a good starting point for the balance of 2024. Speaker 600:30:11Okay. And then I think I saw correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw that you have about 60 60% or 62% of your property level mortgages, CMHC insured. Is there a goal to increase that or anything in mind regarding that? Speaker 300:30:27Yes. We do plan yes, you're right. 62% of our mortgages are insured with CMHC financing. We would we do continue to have other properties that are currently unencumbered or that they're low leverage that we would add some more CMHC financing to that. Speaker 600:30:50And that's probably the most attractive rates you're seeing, right, is with the CMHC insured debt? Speaker 300:30:56That's correct. Those are the most attractive rates currently in the market right now, which is why we're pursuing and we have active applications ongoing with CMHC right now. Speaker 100:31:07And we have seen this market change. We did a big acquisition in 2018 where CMHC rates were very compelling. And 4 months later, unsecured, money was actually cheaper than CMHC. So we pivoted very quickly. And I think our to David's point, our focus is we have the ability to borrow more in CMHC. Speaker 100:31:26But the biggest thing for us is really the flexibility of between secured financing and unsecured financing. So, we have multiple options as we get closer to the November timeline, to refinance the debt. Speaker 600:31:41Got it. Okay. That's very helpful. I'll turn it back. Operator00:31:46Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our Q and A session and today's call. Thank you all for joining. You may now disconnect.Read moreRemove AdsPowered by