Symbotic Q1 2025 Earnings Report

First National Financial EPS Results

• Actual EPS: -C$0.03
• Consensus EPS: -C$0.04
• Beat/Miss: Beat by +C$0.01
• One Year Ago EPS: N/A

First National Financial Revenue Results

• Actual Revenue: N/A
• Expected Revenue: $490.04 million
• Beat/Miss: N/A
• YoY Revenue Growth: N/A

First National Financial Announcement Details

• Quarter: Q1 2025
• Date: 2/5/2025
• Time: After Market Closes
• Conference Call Date: Wednesday, February 5, 2025
• Conference Call Time: 5:00PM ET

First National Financial (TSE:FN) Corp is the parent company of First National Financial LP, a Canadian originator, underwriter, and servicer of predominantly prime residential and commercial mortgages. The company controls its First National Mortgage Investment Fund, which manages economic exposure to a diversified portfolio of primarily commercial mezzanine mortgages. Most mortgages originated by First National are funded either by placement with institutional investors or through securitization conduits, in each case with retained servicing. In general, originations are allocated from one funding source to another depending on market conditions and strategic considerations related to maintaining diversified funding sources.

Symbotic Q1 2025 Earnings Call Transcript

Presentation

[Operator]

Hello, and welcome to Symbolic First Quarter twenty twenty five Financial Results Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. After the speakers' presentation, there will be a question and answer session. I would now like to turn the conference over to Charlie Anderson, Vice President of Investor Relations. You may begin.

[Charlie Anderson, Vice President, Investor Relations & Corporate Development at Symbotic]

Thank you. Hello. Welcome to Cymbiotics' First Quarter twenty twenty five Financial Results Webcast. I'm Charlie Anderson, Cymbiotics' Vice President, Investor Relations. Some of the statements that we make today regarding our business operations and financial performance may be considered forward looking.

[Charlie Anderson, Vice President, Investor Relations & Corporate Development at Symbotic]

Such statements are based on current expectations and assumptions that are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties. Actual results could differ materially. Please refer to our Form 10 ks, including the risk factors. We undertake no obligation to update any forward looking statements. In addition, during this call, we will present both GAAP and non GAAP financial measures.

[Charlie Anderson, Vice President, Investor Relations & Corporate Development at Symbotic]

A reconciliation of GAAP to non GAAP measures is included in today's earnings press release, which is distributed and available to the public through our Investor Relations website located at ir.symbiotic.com. On today's call, we are joined by Rick Cohen, Symbiotic's Founder, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer and Carol Hibbard, Symbiotic's Chief Financial Officer. These executives will discuss our first quarter fiscal twenty twenty five results and our outlook followed by Q and A. With that, I'll turn it over to Rick to begin. Rick?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Thank you, Charlie. Good afternoon and thank you for joining us to review our most recent results. In the first quarter, we continued to deliver high growth, while enhancing our technology position. Last quarter, I highlighted that our key objectives for our fiscal year twenty twenty five were scaling for growth and investing in our innovation engine, while delivering high quality systems to our customers. And that by doing so, we would look forward to another year of strong top line growth and expanding profitability.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

On the scaling front, we believe we have made good progress building out the team to support growth and deployment. Deployment execution is critical for our company and we are seeing progress from the change we made last year, bringing more of the deployment functions in house. In addition, we continue to focus on project execution and schedule. In terms of investing in innovation, we recently brought aboard a new CTO, James Cuthbert. James brings a wealth of experience in robotics and software with relevant leadership experience at Toyota and Google.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

James and the team are working on several exciting initiatives, notably new simulation tools intended to allow us to deploy new features more rapidly. This capability was bolstered by our acquisition of Omni Labs during the quarter, which allowed us to add software assets and tools that accelerate our simulation efforts company wide. Having a strong technology position is at the core of our acquisition of Walmart's Advanced Systems and Robotics business and the related commercial agreement to automate Walmart store level accelerated pickup and delivery centers or APDs. As I noted a few weeks ago when we announced the deal, we see this acquisition as giving Symbonic arguably the industry's strongest collection of products, talent and intellectual property for supply chain automation. Our goal is to help customers automate all the way from the manufacturing plant to the store and eventually to the consumer.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

We closed this transformative acquisition last week and have already begun our integration efforts. As a reminder, we will first be in a development phase, which will include the building of prototypes. This is a logical extension of our core technology and Walmart is committed to deploying our technology in 400 stores over a multi year period, representing over $5,000,000,000 of future backlog, provided we meet key performance criteria during this phase. Stepping back, we've closed three acquisitions in the last seven months, which we believe sets us apart as a leader in this space. Further, Walmart's selection of us to automate their APDs is a strong acknowledgment of our capabilities.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Our technical talent continues to grow and we remain focused on expanding our profitability. I want to close my remarks by thanking our team for their hard work this quarter, our customers for their continued trust and our investors for their support of our company. Now Carol will discuss our financial results and outlook. Carol?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Thanks, Rick. First quarter revenue grew 35% year over year to $487,000,000 with revenue growth driven by solid progress across our 44 systems in the process of deployment, along with 80% plus year over year growth from our recurring revenue, which includes software and operations services. In the quarter, we began four new system deployments and completed four systems, bringing us up to a total of 29 in operation. As more systems go operational, we are seeing a more noticeable contribution from software. Our software revenue in the first quarter more than doubled year over year and we delivered software margins over 65% for the first time in a quarter.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

In terms of backlog, our backlog of committed contracted orders of $22,400,000,000 remained consistent with last quarter as the addition of the WAMEX contract plus final pricing on contracts was offset by revenue recognized during the quarter. System gross margin improved on a sequential basis as we continued to improve our execution. Gross margin on software maintenance and support also improved sequentially, continuing its trend toward typical industry software margins as we gain scale. In Operations Services, we posted a negative gross profit as we continue to support certain sites by investing in additional resources to ensure customer success. We would expect the impact of this increase in resources to moderate going forward and see no change to our long term model of operations services as a beneficial contributor to overall margins.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

We see our focus on reliability and ease of use for our customers as enabling long term benefits that we believe will far exceed any short term expense associated with these efforts. Operating expenses were up sequentially as expected due to the investments we are making to support our growth. Overall, our net loss in the quarter was $19,000,000 Thanks to improving gross margins on systems and software, adjusted EBITDA in the quarter of $18,000,000 came in above our forecast. We finished the quarter with cash and equivalents of $9.00 $3,000,000 which increased from $727,000,000 in the fourth quarter, primarily due to cash from operations of two zero five million dollars in the quarter, which was driven by the timing of cash receipts. Now turning to our outlook.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

For the second quarter of fiscal twenty twenty five, we expect revenue of $510,000,000 to $530,000,000 and adjusted EBITDA between $26,000,000 and $30,000,000 reflecting another quarter of at least 30% year over year revenue growth and a sequential increase in overall gross margins, while accommodating a sequential increase in operating expenses associated with recent acquisitions. We note that our guidance reflects only a modest contribution from the acquisition of the Walmart Advanced Systems and Robotics business, given the partial quarter and the fact that it is the early days of our development program. As a reminder, you should not expect our revenue for our development program to track Walmart's front loaded payments and we may end up deferring a portion of the revenue to the store deployment period. In summary, we look forward to another quarter of high growth with a continued recovery in our margins. With that, we now welcome your questions.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Operator, please begin the Q and A.

[Operator]

Thank Our first question comes from the line of Nicole DeBlase with Citibank. Your line is open.

[Nicole Deblase, Analyst at Deutsche Bank]

Yes, thanks. Good afternoon, guys.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Hi, Nicole.

[Nicole Deblase, Analyst at Deutsche Bank]

Hello. So maybe just starting with the OpEx in 2Q, you mentioned that we should see another Q on Q increase. Can you talk a little bit about the magnitude of that OpEx increase expected and at what point do you get to kind of run rate OpEx and maybe you can split it between SG and A and R and D? Thank you.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Thanks, Nicole. Yes, so we saw a step up in our OpEx this quarter and we would expect second quarter OpEx to increase about $5,000,000 to $10,000,000 This is primarily driven by the investments we're making in the long term for the business as well as what you're seeing from the acquisition. So the step up this quarter for one quarter that we're posting, you saw a step up in SG and A. Some of that was our overall infrastructure, getting ready for acquisitions and our scaling of our program management function. So as we moderate going forward, you should expect that OpEx, to moderate between R and D and SG and A similar to the levels you're going to see in the second quarter.

[Nicole Deblase, Analyst at Deutsche Bank]

Got it. Thank you. And then just maybe if we could dig into the Operations Services loss in the quarter a little bit more. I think you guys had expected that to return to maybe positive growth. So can you talk a little bit more about what happened and then how should we think about gross profit for that business for the rest of the year?

[Nicole Deblase, Analyst at Deutsche Bank]

Thanks.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. So when I think about operations services and what that includes, so there and you see a little bit of lumpiness in terms of revenue from quarter over quarter as well. And so there are different intensities at different sites based on what we're providing from a training and resources perspective. What you saw this quarter, as we alluded to, we're supporting several of our customers and the resources needs that they need as some of our large systems go live. I would expect you'll likely to see this continue in the near term, but not at the same level.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

And that depends on what we're focused on for the long term, which is focus on reliability and support for our customers as they deploy and bring our systems online.

[Nicole Deblase, Analyst at Deutsche Bank]

Thank you. I'll pass it on.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Okay. Thanks.

[Operator]

Please standby for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Andy Kaplowitz with Citigroup. Your line is open.

[Andrew Kaplowitz, Managing Director at Citi]

Hey, good afternoon, good evening everyone.

[Operator]

Hi, Andy.

[Andrew Kaplowitz, Managing Director at Citi]

Rick or Carol, I think you said that your move to more insourcing is on track and you're forecasting higher adjusted EBITDA margin again in Q2. So it seems like you're starting to get down on the cost curve again as you increase the number of deployed systems. But maybe you could update us on where you are in the process of in sourcing, whether you feel good about more, let's call it, limited noise and margin from here?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Thanks for the question, Andy. So in terms of our engineering procurement and construction contract, we're making good progress. And so as we talked about, this is going to be a multi quarter transition. Over the course of the last several months, we have brought all of that work in house and the sourcing that we had that brought that we brought in sourced in from the contractors, they have completed their work ahead of schedule. And so, all of that work is now in the hands of Symbiotic.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

We continue to scale and we will have our first couple of systems where Symbiotic was performing the EPC work, behind us in the next quarter or so. So that's certainly one of the contributors in terms of managing overall schedule. We know we have work to do in terms of overall systems gross margin. Schedule is one of those elements and then we're focused on how we continue to improve our costs as well.

[Andrew Kaplowitz, Managing Director at Citi]

Kyle, that's helpful. And then maybe related, I think you said you had four new systems starts this quarter, you had nine last quarter. We know it's going to be a bit lumpy. Is the run rate still higher though overall? Are you still expecting more over the next few quarters as you sort of stabilize as you just talked about in sourcing and what have you?

[Andrew Kaplowitz, Managing Director at Citi]

Like how do you think about sort of new starts while balancing execution as you've talked about?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. So the four new starts this quarter was not unexpected given the fact that we were coming off of the last quarter at nine. And so we've also talked about every quarter is it's going to be lumpy. We'll have some quarters that are higher, some are lower, but we should expect that number to continue to increase throughout the year as we build out our $22,000,000,000 backlog.

[Andrew Kaplowitz, Managing Director at Citi]

Appreciate it.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Thank you.

[Operator]

Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Damian Karas with UBS. Your line is open.

[Damian Karas, Executive Director at UBS Group]

Hey, good evening, everyone.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Hello.

[Damian Karas, Executive Director at UBS Group]

Maybe we

[Damian Karas, Executive Director at UBS Group]

could Hi.

[Damian Karas, Executive Director at UBS Group]

Yes, maybe just taking a step back from kind of your current deployments. I was wondering if you could just maybe give us a sense on any indications or discussions from the potential target pool of customers out there and how they're thinking about budget this year. Are you possibly seeing any changes in those discussions from last year or where there was a more tempered CapEx backdrop or kind of business as usual?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. So this is Rick. So it's been an interesting year, I think, as the investments we're making in running these sites better and better and operationally have come to fruition. So we've had a lot more inquiries across multiple categories in the last I would say the end of last year, the end of twenty twenty four where people are starting to think about spending money in 2025. So we've had obviously, we've had a bunch more orders from Walmart, but also we've had manufacturers and different suppliers, a bunch more incoming, as well as more international inquiries.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

So I think what's happening is that I think people are more concerned about the labor situation than they were before. I think the people that have the capital are interested in deploying the capital now versus maybe waiting and watching to see how some of our bigger customers were handling things. So we're pretty encouraged by what we see with the new customers and the new inquiries coming in.

[Damian Karas, Executive Director at UBS Group]

Great. That's really helpful color. And obviously, the subject matter of tariffs has been quite topical in the investor world of late. So I don't think I think you've said in the past you don't depend too much on China, but maybe you could just give us a sense thinking about these three countries, China, Mexico and Canada, and what your exposures might be there?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes, I can start and then chime in. So our we have immaterial impact for China. We continue to work closely with our supply chain team because as you indicated, it's rather volatile at the moment. Our contracts are varied as well by customer and by project, but typically these types of costs are pass throughs for us. And so from the other jurisdictions, we're looking at we do have bought assembly in Mexico, and so that's one we'll keep our eye on.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

But as you said, the what's included in terms of value add as well as what the final tariffs are going to end up being remains pretty volatile.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

And most of

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

our products are actually made in The U. S. There's some assembly that we do in Mexico. I think the more interesting things, though, people are focusing on tariffs, but if immigration as a result of tariffs is slowed down and deportations are accelerated, I would expect the demand for our products to continue to accelerate.

[Damian Karas, Executive Director at UBS Group]

Yes, that makes sense. And just thinking about your own supply chain though, hypothetically, there is a Mexico tariff that gets tacked on. Would you lean towards making some price adjustments or kind of a shift in the footprint? Just any thoughts on where you'd lean?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. Contractually, we contemplated tariffs, we've contemplated, I don't know, it's not necessarily force majeure, but government taxes and regulations and all of our contracts allow us to pass that along.

[Damian Karas, Executive Director at UBS Group]

Great. Thanks for the color.

[Operator]

Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Joe Giordano with TD Cowen. Your line is open.

[Joseph Giordano, Analyst at Cowen]

Hi guys. Thanks for taking my questions. Carol, I was wondering if you can give us an update on like the control procedures implemented related to the issues you guys found as part of the year end audit and how that's kind of informing your guides and giving kind of changing confidence in what you're seeing and how it relates to planning, future planning?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. So all of our deficiency remediation controls, and so those included adding compensating controls over how we do goods receipt as well as adding compensating controls over how we're recording revenue for non billable cost growth. We've provided training. We've provided enhancements to our ERP system. So all of those have been deployed.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

And the results of our testing are encouraging. We've had known deficiencies that were noted as part of that testing. But I believe that as we've noted before, it will take several sequential quarters of testing to remediate, but we are encouraged by the progress.

[Joseph Giordano, Analyst at Cowen]

Great. And then if I could one more follow-up there and then if I could sneak one in for Rick. But I'm just curious, the four that you completed, how long did those systems generally take to do? And like what's how does that compare to the expected timeline for the four that you just started? And then Rick, just if I can ask you on M and A side, you've done some of these like interesting opportunistic deals here.

[Joseph Giordano, Analyst at Cowen]

How are you balancing complexity of the organization at an early stage where you're trying to like dial it in and get more efficient versus taking advantage of some of these things that are out there, but that kind of widens the scope of it? Thanks.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Okay. So in terms of our timeline, so we started our remediation process immediately after the identification of our material weaknesses. So those controls we put in place and we tested them over the course of this quarter.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

On the acquisition side, the acquisitions have been more or less they've been small. And so two of the companies, we knew the people there and one of the companies was actually doing some consulting for us. And so when we've done the acquisition, these are typically the first two outside of the Walmart robotics systems were 20 person companies. And so not very significant increases and actually we've replaced some of our people with some of the new technology with some of the new folks. So no significant cost changes on the Walmart robotics and systems piece.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

It's been a week or two. We're still evaluating everything. There's some talent there and we'll figure the integration. But that building is just I don't know, it's like ten minutes from here. So we think the integration will work very smoothly.

[Joseph Giordano, Analyst at Cowen]

Thanks guys.

[Operator]

Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Ross Blerinklick with William Blair. Your line is open.

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

Hey, good evening guys.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Hi, Ross.

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

Hey, Carol, can you update us on

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

what the lead times looked like

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

in the quarter? And just given the work on in sourcing, how should we think about the internal expectations for driving that progress as we move through the year?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

For lead times, we've shortened our over the course of 2024, I'll say, post COVID is when we tightened up our lead times from the majority of our supply chain. And we have not had significant changes over the course of the last quarter or two. We continue to focus on what we can do upstream, so that we can shorten that lead time as well as simplify the deployment once our material arrives on-site.

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

Okay. I mean, are we getting close to closing in on kind of the eighteen months with a path to 12? I mean, is that really is that kind of the framework for the next twelve, twenty four months? Or is there something else that

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

you can do on?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

So the systems that we were deploying right now, we're still averaging twenty four months or in a couple of them there have been large complex deployments, I'll call it, and they've been over. Ross, we still see a path forward of how we streamline that improvement, but that's going to take some time.

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

Okay. And then maybe just touching on the tariffs in the pass through. Can you give us a sense of the mix in the backlog that is fixed cost versus cost plus? I noticed there's some language that changed in the recent filings and just want to know how those contracts are negotiated, if there's any recent updates there?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. I'd say that the best way to think about that is contract type obviously varies by project and contract. And we have ability for even items that are in our backlog as we go ahead and sign new projects going forward. There's elements of that that we negotiate as pass throughs and updates for things like escalation and changes to material that we've talked about in the past around steel. And probably the best way to look at it is that for those things that are fully in our control, whether that schedule or project execution, the customer's expectations are that we go ahead and we perform to those and those costs and investments, we will take a hit on gross margin there if we don't perform to that.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

But the other things such as the tariffs that Rick identified, they're typically pass throughs.

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

Okay. But you look at

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

the sense you're seeing more pushback at this juncture and if we hit a more rapid inflationary environment, you're going to start seeing more customers try to shift to a fixed cost schedule?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

No, we're not seeing that. As you're aware, we've got long term agreements in place for a good portion of our backlog. So if you think about our backlog for both our Walmart customer and our Green Box customer, those contracts are in place and we're not looking at changing those.

[Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C]

Okay. Awesome. Thank you, guys.

[Operator]

Thanks. Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer. Your line is open.

[Colin Rusch, Managing Director - Head of Sustainable Growth & Resource Optimization Research at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.]

Thanks so much, guys. How should we be thinking about the potential for labor price inflation and how you guys are managing that risk as part of Hawx?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

So a significant portion of our build up is supply based. And so we continue to work with our suppliers and put in place long term agreements with them to buffer us for some of that. And then for the portion of the work that is symbolic labor and EPC, it's certainly one of the things we'll continue to monitor. And we're always looking for opportunities across the rest of our cost basis to ensure that we'll be able to offset that.

[Colin Rusch, Managing Director - Head of Sustainable Growth & Resource Optimization Research at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.]

Thanks so much. And then there's a fair amount of money that's gone into investing in hardware innovation and around robotics. And certainly with some of the kind of attention that's being brought to physical AI, we assume that there's going to be some pretty meaningful innovation happening on the component side. Could you guys talk a little bit about what you're seeing that you're excited about in terms of incremental components that can improve performance or drive costs lower just in general across either the bonds or the whole system?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. So I think we've been on the bleeding edge of that for a couple of years now. And so we started investing in vision with NVIDIA chips and graphic interfaces. We started investing in that probably two or three years ago and that's been one of the expenses that we've incurred over the last couple of years. Most of that's behind us now.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

So getting the physical architecture for our bots in place was a journey because nobody else is doing what we're doing. People are doing this on cars. They do it in the auto industry, but the bots are stationary. And so when you have a moving bot that's picking up boxes, that was unique in the industry because there's vibration, there's a bunch of other things. That's behind us now.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

So now what we're really focusing on is being able to what we call teleops the bots. So essentially a bot to us is now becoming a drone and we can physically move the bot, we can move the arms. And then the next step for that, so that's happening now, it's been happening for the last six months. And that's all been part of the journey we've been on to increase the reliability. And in terms of the customer support, we've had a lot of people on-site.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

And what that translates and so that's been part of the expense of the last quarter. But what that translates into the bots learn. So what happens is now is if a bot goes to pick up a case and the lid pops open, bot says I can't pick up the case, maybe the bot gets stuck. Now what's happening is we'll teleop it, it will actually mimic the skills that the operator is doing and teach the bot and you could call it AI, you can call it whatever you want, but the bots learn and then they give us feedback. And so that part of the journey is what really separates our system.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

We're still on the journey to have a lights out warehouse within our structure and getting much, much closer to that in terms of how many manual interventions we have. So the AI, what we're seeing is the compute power is faster. So and we can now before we used to have to do all this stuff with servers on-site, we're going to start with proper cybersecurity, we're going to start to use the take advantage of cloud to actually get faster transactions, more simulations and take advantage of AI. So ours is an application where AI will help us learn faster.

[Colin Rusch, Managing Director - Head of Sustainable Growth & Resource Optimization Research at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.]

Excellent. Thanks so much guys.

[Operator]

Thank you. Please standby for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Mike Latimore with Northland Capital Markets.

[Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets]

Maybe an update on GreenBox. Can you talk a

[Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets]

little bit

[Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets]

about the demand you're seeing there? Do you expect revenue out of your Atlanta facility this year? Do you expect more sites this year? Maybe just some color on that would be great.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. Atlanta is still on build out. So not a lot of revenue there for this year. That will probably run into next year. Lathrop in California, similar situation.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

But we have had some interesting inquiries into GreenBox as people are starting to look at the technology and looking at different applications. But what I spent the last the whole team has the last three or four months is where we can't announce it yet, but we have some very good hires that we will announce in the next quarter or so to build out the management team at GreenBox. It has experience on with big and small manufacturers selling and developing out the rollout. So that's been a big focus on us. We've had a couple of breakthroughs which we'll announce in the next quarter

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

or so. And I'll just do one go back in terms of both Lathrop and Atlanta. Their heavy implementation period will be later this year. And so that's when you really start seeing the revenue ramping up. But we're taking revenue for both of those now that you're probably seeing in our financials, but heavy ramp up towards the back half of this year.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. So, Monika will get revenue, but the GreenBox revenue.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Got it. Yes. Got it.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Next year.

[Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets]

Okay. So just to be clear, Symbiotic will be seeing revenue later this year?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Absolutely, yes.

[Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets]

Yes.

[Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets]

Okay, got it.

[Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets]

Okay, got it. Makes sense. And then on the cash flow from operations, really strong quarter, $2.00 $5,000,000 As you think about the rest of the year, should we view cash flow from operations being above or below whatever you produce in EBITDA?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. So we don't guide for full year for free cash flow. So 1Q was significantly benefited by the timing of the receipts. So we talked about last quarter, we were waiting on we had a large AR balance. So 1Q is highly benefited from that, but you should expect to see our cash position continue to rise throughout the year.

[Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets]

Okay, great. Thank you.

[Operator]

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Derek Soderbergh with Cantor Fitzgerald. Your line is open.

[Derek Soderberg, Analyst at Cantor Fitzgerald]

Yes. Thanks for taking the questions. Good evening, everyone. Wanted to ask on the software subscriptions and support that was down quarter over quarter. Just curious what leads to the variability there on the downside, especially like last quarter you added nine systems and you brought a few on to live production.

[Derek Soderberg, Analyst at Cantor Fitzgerald]

Just curious what leads to that to decline sequentially? And then what's the actual mix between software subscriptions in that and then the mix of support in that? And then I've got a follow-up.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

So our softer revenue quarter over quarter, we did grow the number of sites. So we went from 25 sites live to 29 sites live. 4Q, we had a onetime benefit in the software revenue line item for some features that we added. So yes, if you normalize for that onetime benefit in the fourth quarter, you actually see a sequential increase in our overall revenue for software. And we expect that to continue to grow.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

So the overall operations of the services we're performing from the site shows up in our operations services line. So our software line is software license and subscription related.

[Derek Soderberg, Analyst at Cantor Fitzgerald]

Got it. That's helpful. And then just a high level question for Rick. The team has really executed against your growth strategy, expanding in domestic markets and then international with Womax. Now you've got an in store solution.

[Derek Soderberg, Analyst at Cantor Fitzgerald]

How do you see the business evolving from here in terms of other adjacent growth opportunities, maybe cold chain, automating returns, smaller packages? What else do you envision that Symbiotic can do that you're not already doing today? Thanks.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. So the accelerated pickup ability, the APDs that we'll be doing for Walmart will have frozen and perishables. So we're developing out the full cold chain and that will eventually lead to us doing just perishable warehouses as well as back to store. We've already done some experimenting on the perishable side. 38 degrees is not a problem for us.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Frozen is still we still have more testing to do. So that's still on our roadmap. Returns is something we think we could be very good at. We've just been too busy to actually get at it right now.

[Operator]

Our next question comes from the line of Greg Palm with Craig Hallum. Your line is open.

[Greg Palm, Senior Research Analyst at Craig-Hallum Capital Group LLC]

Yes. Good evening. Thanks for taking the questions. Going back to some of the cost overruns that sort of surfaced last quarter, I'm just curious if we could get kind of a just a broader update, especially in kind of visibility levels and when you sort of see those moderatinggoing away completely, at least given what we saw from some of the quarters in fiscal twenty twenty four?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. So this quarter, we saw a slight improvement in our systems gross margin, so a slight pickup. And as we go forward in 2Q, 3Q, 4Q, we do have continued focus on making sure we're adhering to schedule, adhering to cost. What you're also going to see benefited in the back half of the year is we will see several of our lower margin, very complex systems go live. And so we're going to see the benefit of a higher gross margin mix as you head to the back half of the year.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

So focus on cost control and focus on deploying opportunities for all of those projects, but we're also going to see the benefit of those systems starting to go live, and our mix will improve.

[Greg Palm, Senior Research Analyst at Craig-Hallum Capital Group LLC]

Okay, understood. And then the revenue, at least by our math, the revenue from non Walmart customers, which had been growing pretty fast for the last year plus, really moderated this quarter. It was just very, very slight growth. Was that just timing? Like how should we think about just the revenue profile of obviously the Walmart business, but also the non Walmart customers as well?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. So clearly by the backlog that we have and the percent that's contributed from Walmart, you're going to see a significant contribution from Walmart going forward. And as Rick talked about from a Green Box perspective, once we get the management team in place and we're fielding inbound there, you're going to start seeing that, grow at the back half of the year. We continue to focus on what are some other customers that we can bring in house and maybe I'll turn it over to Rick to highlight some of the inbound or discussions we're having.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. I mean, inbound, so we have a number of manufacturers now looking at how they could use our systems for mixing centers. So this is opening up really our first CPG companies that are beginning to look at this as they start figuring out that they need to ship mix Palace to some of their smaller customers and because they need the sales. I also think you're going to see the back of store systems, which are considerably cheaper than a warehouse system as a way for us to get rapid interest from a lot of other retailers besides Walmart that we've already had a couple of incomings who only owned the company for a week about could you do this in terms of customer pickup in the back of the store. And so we're seeing that, and that's basically what we've been working on.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

And then we've also seen we started doing some work in different verticals, medical supplies, things like that. So I think we'll see interest there.

[Greg Palm, Senior Research Analyst at Craig-Hallum Capital Group LLC]

Okay. Thanks for the color.

[Operator]

Thank you. Please standby for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Rob Mason with Baird. Your line is open.

[Robert Mason, Senior Research Analyst at Robert W. Baird & Co]

Yes, good evening. Thanks for taking the question. I wanted to see if you could provide us an update just on how the deployment of brake pack systems are going. I understand, I guess, even last quarter there was maybe the second one deployed, but how that's going and relatedly or maybe not. When you talk about, Carol, you mentioned some of the complexity of some of the lower margin projects.

[Robert Mason, Senior Research Analyst at Robert W. Baird & Co]

I'm just curious, is that related to new features that are being put in, new features that maybe we haven't been familiar with or just the nature of the installation that's causing the complexity?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. So we have our second brake pack being deployed and we have a bunch of others that will be coming after that shortly, which we haven't announced yet. But and so we've redesigned the original minibot and we've made some new design functions, which actually customers are really happy about, makes it a little smaller, lowers the price, but still a very it actually increases the margin for us. So I would say that's just one of another product that's been in development for a while and going well.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

And then in terms of my comment on the mix changing as we go forward, It's less about the new features that were on those projects and there were projects that have just been with us for a long time that started out as lower margin. And as we burn those off, we're going to see that mix change. So it was less about features of those particular developments. Some of them are bigger systems that have been in deployment for a while and it would be good to get those moved off into system deployment.

[Robert Mason, Senior Research Analyst at Robert W. Baird & Co]

Very good. Thank you.

[Operator]

Thanks, Rob. Please standby for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Ken Newman with KeyBanc Capital Markets. Your line is open.

[Ken Newman, VP & Equity Research Analyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets]

Hey,

[Ken Newman, VP & Equity Research Analyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets]

thanks. Good evening, guys. Carol, you mentioned expectations for gross margins to expand from 1Q into 2Q. I just think about that in the context of the midpoint of your guide as well as some of the comments about mix kind of improving into the second half, does that assume that the systems gross margins can break 20% here in the first half or is that still a bit too optimistic?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. I would say breaking 20% in the first half is optimistic. First half meaning 1Q is behind us already. So if I think about 2Q, I would not expect to see that eclipse 20% in the first half of the year.

[Ken Newman, VP & Equity Research Analyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets]

And to be clear, would that mix step up that you mentioned earlier in the call, is that a potential step to kind of breaking that pathway?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. And I think what you're going to see in the second quarter too is, we're going to have growth in OpEx, which we talked about. And so that's what you're also seeing in our EBITDA guide. It reflects an increase in OpEx as well as a slight improvement in systems gross margin. Software margin, we're going to continue to see levels in the 60s.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

And as we talked about, ops gross margin will be a drag for the near term, but in the long term, we expect that to rebound.

[Ken Newman, VP & Equity Research Analyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets]

Yes. And then for my follow-up here, Rick, I just wanted to circle back on an earlier comment around AI. I know we've seen a lot of headlines here about potentially cheaper ways to train AI models. When you think of I know you've been kind of first movers within the technology, but when you consider that these models might be cheaper to train, do you view that as a catalyst for yourself? Or is that potentially competitive threat as new as other competitors try to utilize that cheaper technology?

[Ken Newman, VP & Equity Research Analyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets]

How do you think about that as it relates to the system offerings?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes, that's a really good question. So we think we're very, very far ahead of everybody else. And the reason I say that is we've now hit 1,000,000,000 transactions a year and you can't train these models without data. And nobody has the amount of data that we have combined with the architecture and the software. So we think we'll just continue to distance ourselves from the crowd.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Plant.

[Operator]

Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Will Bryant with Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.

[William Bryant, Equity Research Vice President at Goldman Sachs]

Hey, good evening. Thank you for taking my question. I'm on for Mark Delaney today. So just one really quickly on the APD acquisition. I know it's supposed to be accretive to revenue margins and free cash flow, but could you just give a little bit more impact to the financials going or at least this year given that revenue is not supposed to kick in for a couple more quarters please?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. So, our second quarter does have a modest amount of revenue associated with our acquisition. So again, it's modest because we'll have a partial quarter and we're just getting started from that development program. But you're going to see that growth throughout 2025 as we ramp up development. If you think about the cash that we got for the first year, I think our comment was don't assume $230,000,000 of cash from the quarter drives $200,000,000 of revenue for this year.

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

So it will be backloaded. But we do have revenue, modest amount already beginning in the second quarter and we're excited to get the integration going forward and start development.

[William Bryant, Equity Research Vice President at Goldman Sachs]

Thank you for the color. And just one more, I know somebody had commented that it plan to add more salespeople. So what are your expectations for potential new customers either with Symbotic?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. So that's what I was implying. We're starting to ramp up the green box sales team and some of those will be transferable to SIMONIC. Some will be selling a SIMONIC system, some will be offering a green box solution. And so we're in the process of bringing on the sales leaders and we think with the reception we've had from the leadership team is that building out the sales force will be good.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

We have started hiring two or three additional salespeople at Symantec already and they'll focus on different verticals.

[William Bryant, Equity Research Vice President at Goldman Sachs]

Thank you.

[Operator]

Please standby for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Guy Hartwick with Freedom Capital Markets. Your line is open.

[Guy Hardwick, Managing Director at Freedom Capital Markets]

Hi, good evening. Most of my questions have been asked already, but I just wonder how you feel about the guidance you gave in the twenty twenty four ten ks that 10% of the twenty two point four billion dollars backlog would be delivered this year? And maybe you can give some puts and takes to that or does it depend on certain number of deployments in progress?

[Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer at Symbotic]

Yes. So what you'll see in our 10 Q that we posted this evening is the remaining performance obligation that we expect to deliver in the next twelve months. We've upped that to 11%. So I think that will be a good indicator of how our revenue grows back half loaded for 2025. And so we'll 4Q stronger than 3Q is what we're currently looking at.

[Guy Hardwick, Managing Director at Freedom Capital Markets]

Great. Thank you. And just as a

[Guy Hardwick, Managing Director at Freedom Capital Markets]

follow-up, sorry if I missed

[Guy Hardwick, Managing Director at Freedom Capital Markets]

it earlier, I was late on

[Guy Hardwick, Managing Director at Freedom Capital Markets]

the call. I'm just wondering how discussions with non grocery customers are progressing, say general merchandise customers, potential new customers at a high need?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

A number of the customers we're talking to are non grocery customers. And there are different verticals. So, I mean, most retail is still food or general merchandise, but there's also medical supplies and there's auto parts and there's a bunch of other things, all of which we're in discussions with.

[Guy Hardwick, Managing Director at Freedom Capital Markets]

Okay. Thank you.

[Operator]

Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Robert Jamieson with Vertical Research Partners. Your line is open.

[Robert Jamieson, Industrial Tech Equity Research at Vertical Research Partners]

Hey, thanks for taking my questions. Just had a quick one on the Walmart Robotics acquisition. I know it's just closed and it's only been a few weeks. But Rick, do you have a sense of where you think majority of work will be directed to meet Walmart's requirements for these APD systems? Like is it more software related?

[Robert Jamieson, Industrial Tech Equity Research at Vertical Research Partners]

Is there anything you can use or repurpose or make better on the hardware robotics front that was maybe developed by Alert Innovations in the Alphabox system?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. So the Walmart's robotic solution, at this point, we're still looking at it, but there's a bunch of our hardware and a bunch of our software will be applicable to what Walmart already had and that will accelerate the rollout of these sites. They had some good technology, but I think the combination of their technology and our technology is what really got Walmart excited and accelerate the rollout.

[Robert Jamieson, Industrial Tech Equity Research at Vertical Research Partners]

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And then just can we get an update on international? I mean, it doesn't sound like there's much of an update this time, but I mean, how did conversations trend during the quarter?

[Robert Jamieson, Industrial Tech Equity Research at Vertical Research Partners]

Did you see an increase in inbounds or queries? Anything that would suggest maybe that activity is getting a little bit better, the environment is improving over there?

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

Yes. So we had a couple of European tours that we gave and visits and then I spent a bunch of time in Mexico because of Womax just to understand the potential there. And it was very interesting. I mean, obviously, wages are lower in Mexico than they are in The U. S, but also their supply chain is much further behind our supply chain in terms of inventory management and flow to the stores.

[Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer at Symbotic]

And actually it went to some Walmart supercenters and but there are a lot of small stores in Mexico that actually are enabled by particularly the way you specialize and build pallets are delivered to the store. So I think huge opportunity south of the border across all the way down to Central Mexico, Central America, South America.

[Robert Jamieson, Industrial Tech Equity Research at Vertical Research Partners]

Great. Thank you.

[Operator]

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm showing no further questions in the queue. I would now like to turn the call back to Charlie for closing remarks.

[Charlie Anderson, Vice President, Investor Relations & Corporate Development at Symbotic]

Yes. Thank you, everybody for joining our

[Charlie Anderson, Vice President, Investor Relations & Corporate Development at Symbotic]

call tonight. We really appreciate your interest in Symbiotic and look forward to seeing many of you during the quarter at the various investor conferences we'll be attending. Thank you and goodbye.

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

Participants

Executives

• Charlie Anderson, Vice President, Investor Relations & Corporate Development
• Richard Cohen, Chairman of The Board & Chief Executive Officer
• Carol Hibbard, CFO & Treasurer

Analysts

• Nicole Deblase, Analyst at Deutsche Bank
• Andrew Kaplowitz, Managing Director at Citi
• Damian Karas, Executive Director at UBS Group
• Joseph Giordano, Analyst at Cowen
• Ross Sparenblek, Equity Research Analyst at William Blair & Company, L.L.C
• Colin Rusch, Managing Director - Head of Sustainable Growth & Resource Optimization Research at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.
• Mike Latimore, Managing Director & Senior Research Analyst at Northland Capital Markets
• Derek Soderberg, Analyst at Cantor Fitzgerald
• Greg Palm, Senior Research Analyst at Craig-Hallum Capital Group LLC
• Robert Mason, Senior Research Analyst at Robert W. Baird & Co
• Ken Newman, VP & Equity Research Analyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets
• William Bryant, Equity Research Vice President at Goldman Sachs
• Guy Hardwick, Managing Director at Freedom Capital Markets
• Robert Jamieson, Industrial Tech Equity Research at Vertical Research Partners