Celanese Q2 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
August 2, 2024

There are 19 speakers on the call.

Operator

Greetings, and welcome to Celanese's Second Quarter 20 24 Earnings Call and At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. As a reminder, this conference It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Bill Cunningham, Vice President of Investor Relations. Thank you. You may begin.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Diego. Welcome to the 70s Corporation Second Quarter 2024 Earnings Conference Call. My name is Bill Cunningham, Vice President of Investor Relations. With me on the call are Lori Rehacker, Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer Scott Richardson, Chief Operating Officer and Chuck Hirish, Chief Financial Officer. Sony's distributed its 2nd quarter earnings release via Business Wire and posted prepared comments on our Investor Relations website yesterday afternoon.

Speaker 1

As a reminder, we'll discuss non GAAP financial measures today. You can find definitions of these as well as reconciliations to the comparable GAAP measures on our website. Today's presentation will also include forward looking statements. Please review the cautionary language regarding forward looking statements, which can be found at the end of both the press release and prepared comments. Form 8 ks reports containing all of these materials have also been submitted to the SEC.

Speaker 1

With that, Diego, let's please go ahead and open it up for questions.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Speaker 3

We'll

Operator

Our first question comes from Josh Spector with UBS. Please state your question.

Speaker 2

Yes. Hi, good morning. So I wanted to ask on some of the moving pieces within Engineered Materials. I mean, obviously, nice to see a good step up here in the Q2. But I think there's been a constant debate around where the market is and what's stable and in your control versus what needs to have a market improvement.

Speaker 2

So I guess when you look at your expectations about the improvement into 2Q sorry, into 3Q and maybe a stable second half,

Speaker 3

what

Speaker 2

are you assuming behind the markets get there versus cost savings in your control? And given all the cuts we've made to expectations, is this kind of the point where you feel like you're now conservative enough or are there other things that you would have us watch out for? Thanks.

Speaker 4

Good morning, Josh. Thanks for the question. If we look at our Q3 guidance, I would say we're generally expecting things to be on changed in terms of overall market conditions. We do expect a little bit of growth in auto builds in the second half, particularly in China, which I think is consistent with what others in the industry are seeing. But generally, everything else is pretty stable.

Speaker 4

We're not expecting a lot of downturn. That said, we do continue to expect some moderate growth in our volumes based on the strength of our product pipeline. We also expect some continued growth in margin based on synergy pull through and also pull through of lower cost raw materials inventory. So I would say, we don't need market improvement, I guess, maybe other than that a little bit in auto in order to achieve our second half outlook from an Engineered Materials standpoint.

Speaker 2

And I guess just within the auto side specifically considering that's been an area of kind of weakening demand. Is it specific new platforms on certain cars that has driven it? Is it regional with Asia? I guess what gives you the confidence there specifically?

Speaker 4

I think a lot of it is the work around the integration. We now have access to customers with Celanese materials that we previously didn't have because of the contacts that our heritage DuPont had, particularly in non China parts of Asia. And similarly, we have some outlets for some of the heritage M and M materials that we didn't have before. I think it's really again the project pipeline. I mean, we've been working now for a long time, but with the entire portfolio for 18 months to really identify those new customers, those new orders, those new areas within existing customers and make sure that we're strong across all the platforms in auto, ICE, engineered materials, platforms in auto, ICE, engineered materials and hybrids.

Speaker 4

And we called out last quarter earnings, in fact, some of the applications we're getting on EVs with nylon, which is an area where DuPont doesn't necessarily play.

Speaker 2

Understood. Thanks, Laurie.

Operator

Our next question comes from Mike Sison with Wells Fargo. Please state your question.

Speaker 3

Hey, good morning. In terms of the Q4 versus the 3rd, it does look like you'll need some improvements sequentially. Is at the midpoint, is a lot of that within your control, some of the factors that you've talked about in the past?

Speaker 4

Yes. If you do the math, you would expect that we need some additional lift in the 4th quarter. I would put it down to a few things. We it should be our largest quarter of synergy capture. For the Engineered Materials, we should start seeing more of a full year run rate on Clear Lake as we'll have gotten through all the effects of the supplier outages and a little bit from Hurricane Barrel in the Q3.

Speaker 4

So that will be an uplift there. I would also say, our mix has changed. So with the acquisition of M and M, we now have a higher presence in China. And so we wouldn't expect as much seasonality now in the 4th quarter as we've typically seen with the Heritage, Sell and East portfolio. So all of those things come together.

Speaker 4

Again, we're not other than this little bit of uptick that's being predicted in auto, we're not really expecting material conditions to change. So it really will be the result of kind of the self help, the activities that we've undertaken over the last 18 months. Yes. The one

Speaker 5

thing I'd add to that Mike is the work we're doing in the commercial organization in the Engineered Materials business. We integrated commercial teams in the early part of Q2 last year. And the average length of time that projects sit in our pipeline is about 18 months to 24 months. So we're really coming up on that first 18 month plateau here at the end of this year in Q4 and going into next year. And given kind of the trajectory we've seen on the success of the volume lift from Q1 to Q2, we're really starting to see the benefit of that model play out with bringing M and M into that EM business.

Speaker 5

And so you do have a little bit of element of that as well from how we see the pipeline developing at the end of the year.

Speaker 3

Great. And a quick follow-up, the macro hasn't been very helpful for you and Tams in general. So things get worse sequentially into the second half, what changes can you make to sort of hit this range? And then, sort of help us think about 25% and the ramp up potential of earnings the earnings profit for Celanese longer term?

Speaker 4

Yes. Look, things can always get worse, right? And we've seen that. But I would also say, things have been certainly very challenging this year. And the results that we're delivering this year are really based on the remarkable efforts of our teams and their ability to innovate, the resilience that they shown and really looking under every rock for sources of value.

Speaker 4

So if it gets worse, that will continue. I would say, Europe, for all practical measures, has been in a near recessionary kind of condition. So we think it's going to be stable based on what we can see in our order books right now, certainly for Q3. As we go into 2025, we will continue to have self help, which will help lift us in 'twenty five. I think if you look at 'twenty five, we can think about the run rate that we'll see in the second half of the year continuing through 'twenty five.

Speaker 4

Then we'll have another tranche of M and M synergies on top of that, as well as full productivity from Clear Lake next year and probably some additional interest rate benefits as well. So I think the things that we've seen this year will continue to compound into next year and raise the 2025 results. But it's frankly, it's just too early to tell what the fundamental economic conditions are going to be in 2025 yet.

Speaker 3

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from Mike Leithead with Barclays. Please state your question.

Speaker 6

Great. Thanks. Good morning, team. A few questions on the asset yields force majeure. I guess, first, are we still in force majeure?

Speaker 6

And when do you expect to fully resolve these disruptions? 2, should we think about any insurance proceeds or any sort of restitution for you guys from these disruptions? And then finally, apologies if I missed this, but what is the all in expected cost impact from this outage?

Speaker 4

Thanks for the question, Mike. We are still in force, majeure. The units obviously are restarted, running well, but it is a longish supply chain in the Western Hemisphere. So we're in force majeure till we can reestablish those supply chains into Europe, which is the work going on currently. But we fully expect that we'll lift the force majeure sometime in this quarter.

Speaker 4

In terms of restitution, we're really just focused right now and have been focused in the second quarter on working with our suppliers to understand what the issues were, how we could get through them more quickly, how to address reliability issues going forward, how to make sure that we maintain really good relationships. That's really been our focus now and we'll have discussions about any form of restitution later.

Speaker 6

Okay. I'm sorry. And then just in terms of all in cost impact?

Speaker 4

I'm sorry. I just missed it. Yes. So this quarter, Q2, I would say, was about $35,000,000 And then next quarter, we'll see another $5,000,000 to 10,000,000

Speaker 6

dollars Okay, great. And then I just wanted to follow-up on some of the competitive dynamics in your product. I think in the remarks you noted commodity nylon is below the cost curve. There has been some stabilizing? Or have we started to recover here?

Speaker 6

Well, I think, stabilizing? Or have we started to recover here?

Speaker 4

As you called out, Mike, I mean, we definitely saw price pressure on raw nylon polymer this last quarter. It has definitely gone down and it's affected some of the margin uplift we expected from pull through. That said, I think this really points out the benefit of the strategy we took though to shut down standard grade polymerization at Oontrope and really be able to give ourselves flexibility in terms of where we choose to source raw nylon polymer and compound it for our customers. So that's really paid off. We would have seen more of a hit this past quarter if we hadn't done that.

Speaker 4

I would say on the other products, not as much pricing pressure as margin pressure as we've seen some increase in raw materials, especially think about palm, where we've seen some increase in ethylene. So those being the 2 biggest, I would say, again, nylon, it's price, but mitigated by the steps that we've taken. Palm, we've seen pressure on ethylene pricing.

Speaker 7

Great. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from Jeff Zekauskas with JPMorgan. Please state your question.

Speaker 8

Thanks very much. Were the outages at Clear Lake caused by anything else other than carbon monoxide difficulties? Was there some other source of inefficiency in the quarter?

Speaker 5

Yes. Thanks for the question, Jeff. Yes, with the suppliers that we have and we've talked about multiple suppliers, it was really around several different raw materials that we source.

Speaker 8

Several. So it's a wider issue than SCIO?

Speaker 5

Yes. We're not talking about the specific materials, Jeff. I mean, at the end of the day, we talked about acetic acid and we buy several different raw materials for that.

Speaker 8

And then secondly, can you talk about your preference as to whether you would sell acetic acid or you would sell VAM in the current environment. How are the can you compare the profitability of those 2 chemical outputs?

Speaker 5

Yes. Honestly, Jeff, it really does fluctuate week to week, region to region. And we are looking at kind of where the different markets are at and kind of where they're trending based upon kind of where the fundamental supply demand dynamics are. And that is going to be kind of one way in one geography for the 1st part of the quarter and maybe a little different. I would say in general, we tend to be pivoting more, as we talked about last quarter, in Asia, more further downstream.

Speaker 5

We've seen more opportunities in our emulsions as well as our Redispersible Powder business to be able to grow in some of those areas. We talked in the prepared comments about some of the out of kind substitution that we've been successful driving there with the expanded capacities that we have. In addition, with those expanded capacities, we've been able to really work with our customers in India specifically to kind of help develop that market and really start to drive there. So that has been a nice growth area for us, more on the Asia side. And I would say it's a little more balanced somewhere we're selling in the Western Hemisphere.

Speaker 7

Great. Thank

Operator

you. Our next question comes from Ghansham Panjabi with Baird. Please state your question.

Speaker 9

Hey, guys. Good morning. Laurie, I just want to go back to my usual question on the sort of the macro pulse. Obviously, your volumes have been weak for several quarters. But just based on your sense as we spin around the world, do you feel like the macro is relatively stable on a consolidated basis?

Speaker 9

Or is it just your own initiatives that are masking what is otherwise a sequential deceleration? And I'm just asking because obviously the data in China is very poor. Commodity prices have pulled back including oil, etcetera, more recently. So a real time basis, what are you seeing?

Speaker 4

On a real time basis, Ghansham, I would say stable is the right word. Again, I go back to auto. Auto actually has been a little stronger in the U. S. And Asia.

Speaker 4

Europe has weakened year on year. But globally, auto has been pretty stable and we do see, especially in China, some further strengthening in the second half. Consumer and electronics, again, pretty stable globally, but in our own portfolio, because of what we've been able to do through the project pipeline and the good work by our teams on the ground, we are starting to see some growth in consumer and electronics. We've had strong Q on Q growth in medical implants, which is a little bit unique to us and as expected. And we really are not seeing destocking, the cadence and consistency of orders.

Speaker 4

It continues to improve. We got a few percent growth from that. And really, I would say, overall, I'd call the market stable, but we're starting to see a little bit of volume growth in Engineered Materials anyway, just because of the project pipeline and the revenue synergies, etcetera. Think in acetyls, again, stable is the right word. It is stable for construction, paints and coatings, specifically that sector at a very low rate.

Speaker 4

And we thought we'd start to see some seasonal uptick there. We have not seen that in the Q2 and we're not anticipating it now for the Q3 as well. And I think that's true for all regions. But to put it in perspective, for the company as a whole, I'd say remind you that 25% of what we make is auto and auto has been stable to slightly up this year. Everything else is less than that.

Speaker 4

So we're really seeing the value I think in our portfolio of the diversity of our portfolio and the ability that has to help us stabilize earnings and buying pockets of improvement.

Speaker 9

Okay, fantastic. And then for my second question, in terms of free cash flow, I mean, you guys have very efficient in pulling levers to kind of protect free cash flow throughout this challenging volume environment. Is there anything for 2025 that we need to keep in mind as it relates to the bridge, 24 versus 25 that you're benefiting from this year that may not repeat next year?

Speaker 3

Chuck, you would take that.

Speaker 10

Yes, Ghansham. I would say actually there are a couple of things in our components of our free cash flow in 'twenty five, which will get better. It's a very heavy year for cash taxes. I've tried to talk about a lot and explain. Cash tax will be significantly lower next year.

Speaker 10

Our cash interest will continue to drive lower next year as we pay off our debt. I don't see our CapEx changing materially while we're here in our deleveraging phase, right? So we've done a lot of work on our inventories as well. So there's actually a few things next year that we built in cash positives versus 2024. Okay.

Speaker 9

Thanks so much.

Operator

Thank you. And our next question comes from Arun Viswanathan with RBC Capital Markets. Please state your question.

Speaker 7

Great. Thanks for taking my question. So, just going back to that force majeure comment, so sounds like maybe 40 to 45 for the full year, which is maybe around $0.35 or so on the EPS line. So if you think about the remaining reduction maybe $0.65 at the midpoint, how do you think about that between price and volume and many other factors, I guess, driving that reduction?

Speaker 4

Yes. I would think about it really in 4 buckets. So the first bucket is what you called out the $45,000,000 or so associated with our supplier issues this year. There's probably another $40,000,000 on top of that of Clear Lake productivity because of the timing of when all this happened relative to our start up, etcetera, that $100,000,000 of productivity, we won't get there's about $40,000,000 more of that. So that's about half of that step up that we would have expected to get to foundational earnings or putting that dollar.

Speaker 4

And then the other part of that sorry, I'm thinking about $25,000,000 Let me back up. So for your question, which is really about the dollar we went down. Again, it's the same, but so we have about nearly half of it is coming from that. Then we have, I'd say, the issues we're having around construction, paints and coatings. And it's really more there a question of margins in the Acetyl business.

Speaker 4

And then on the EM side, which is the 3rd bucket, it is really the question of what are we able to pull through on raw materials. Because as we've talked about with palm, margins being compressed and nylon margins being compressed, but one, because of raw materials, one, because of pricing. We had said we may get as much as 150 pull through in of lower raw materials. We're probably only going to get about half of that this year. So I would think about it that way.

Speaker 7

Okay. That's very helpful. And I guess you're answering my other question there a little bit as well. So just as you think about 2025, then which of those factors kind of come back to you? It sounds like maybe half of that.

Speaker 7

And then on top of that, how much do you expect from synergies and deleveraging as you look into 2025?

Speaker 4

Yes. So when you think about 2025, as I said, the run rate we see in the second half, I think, is a good indicator as a base for 25%. And then you think about we also of course, in the second half, we will get the majority of that Clear Lake supplier issues will have been cleared off. We'll start getting some more productivity. So if you look forward, I would think about synergies.

Speaker 4

We will definitely have a good tranche of synergies next year, similar to what we've had this year and last year. And then, we should

Speaker 5

have a little bit

Speaker 4

of additional help from turnarounds as well. And then, of course, we have some additional help from interest rates.

Speaker 5

Thanks.

Operator

Our next question comes from Vincent Andrews with Morgan Stanley. Please state your question.

Speaker 6

Thank you. Laurie, can I ask you on the Acetyl chain? You noted that the Clear Lake outage, I think you said, was the biggest one you've had in 15 years. And obviously it didn't lead to the market improving. So as you bring Clear Lake back up, are you making any adjustments to production anywhere else?

Speaker 6

Or do you think that the market is going to be able to absorb the resumption of production even as we kind of come out of what usually is the seasonally stronger period of the year?

Speaker 4

Vincent, it's hard to say. I mean, we make adjustments all the time to our production. And so we'll continue to look at that. I mean, it's a call that happens daily just about in the Avotel teams what we should be making where based on where the markets are going. So, I don't see this necessarily changing it.

Speaker 4

You're right, we didn't see much price response with the shutdown or with the loss of production during that time, but I think that just reflects how really weak the demand environment is for constructions and coatings.

Speaker 3

Scott, do you have something to add? Yes.

Speaker 5

I mean, how I would add to that, Vincent, it's kind of going back to what we talked about earlier is And assuming that we are able to get back to And assuming that we are able to get back the key raw materials where we had multiple suppliers that had issues on that, then it's going to give us the ability to have that optionality to kind of operate the chain as we normally do. And so, we're rebuilding our inventories now and getting that flexibility back and we'll be able to get that flex, which is just going to kind of depend kind of where things are from month to month.

Speaker 1

And then if I could

Speaker 6

just follow-up, also in the prepared remarks, you made some comments, Laurie, about the new assets in China that have started up and that obviously that's incremental supply that hasn't been absorbed. But what I was trying to square was you said that that supply seems to have stayed largely in Asia and that European exports or exports to Europe are down 40% over the last 12 months. So I just wanted to understand is that saying that that excess product that's come out of those Chinese facilities is just sort of weighing on only on the Asian market, but they've also actually taken product out of Europe or I just didn't understand why the European exports have come down?

Speaker 4

Yes, I think if you just look at the low margins that are associated right now, I mean, China has been basically at the cost curve. So although these new units have started up and they may be slightly advantaged, that given the low demand in China, especially in some of the areas like construction, but also EBA, where we've seen quite a downturn here recently, That material, quite frankly, it's more affordable for them to ship it and put it in other parts of Asia than necessarily to get it to China. So I think it's the economics of taking that demand into Asia, which has left the channel to Europe more into the U. S.

Speaker 7

Okay. That makes sense. Thanks very much for clarity.

Operator

Our next question comes from Kevin McCarthy, Vertical Research Partners. Please state your question.

Speaker 11

Hi, this is Matt Hetler on for Kevin McCarthy. In the prepared remarks, you mentioned the potential for targeted divestiture opportunities on the same scale as Food Ingredients. Would you consider looking at your other JVs there, maybe something along the lines of the Fairway Methanol JV?

Speaker 4

Yeah. Look, Matt, I would just say, we really never comment on what specific assets or processes that we're in. We are are to us, we are open to look at divestment. And of course, the timing of that is unpredictable. So I can't comment on any specifics.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 5

The only thing I'd add is we have stated that we do like having an integration in methanol somewhere between about 40% 50% of our total needs. And we think that gives us kind of a nice balance from being in the market, much like we articulated we're now doing with nylon. We like being able to buy and make a little bit and be in the market for a portion of that. For methanol, we consistently relook at what that right balance is and we've landed right in that kind of 40% to 50%.

Speaker 11

Okay. Thank you. And then just a quick one. You paid down $500,000,000 in debt in the 2nd quarter. Looking at another $500,000,000 in the 3rd, how do you expect that to trend in the 4th quarter?

Speaker 10

Are you talking interest expense?

Speaker 5

Yes.

Speaker 10

Yes. I would there's some moving parts in there. There's some short term revolver draw and there is debt pay down. When you look at it, some of those bonds that we're paying down have really low coupons. 1 of the maturities was swapped down to 1%.

Speaker 10

At the same time, you've got cash that you're using to pay that down. It's actually making really good rate. So I do expect a decline in interest, a slight decline in the second half of the year. I'd say in both Q3 and Q4, the interest expense on a net basis should be a few million lower than you see in Q2.

Operator

Our next question comes from Aleksey Yefremov with KeyBanc Capital Markets. Please state your question.

Speaker 12

Thanks. Good morning. In your prepared remarks, you talked about expansion between pricing raw materials and EM in the Q3. Do you need to raise prices to achieve that or raises due to cheaper layers of raw materials inventory?

Speaker 5

Alexia, our focus is really on kind of controlling the things that we can control, as Laurie mentioned earlier, and launching new projects from our pipeline model. As Laurie mentioned, we are assuming very similar landscape in Q3 overall to what we saw in Q2. So we're not necessarily baking that in to our base. It really is about the raw materials flowing through. And also as we launch new projects and new opportunities, getting a mix uplift from that.

Speaker 5

So I see that being the larger portion of margin expansion.

Speaker 12

Very helpful. Thank you. And on Clear Lake expansion, can you just clarify how much do you expect it to contribute this year to your EBIT given all the challenges in total versus your 100,000,000 dollars target? And then how much can we expect next year assuming the margin picture does not change?

Speaker 4

Yes. Look, Alexia, I would expect about half roughly this year and then the other half next year in addition.

Speaker 12

Thanks a lot, Larry.

Operator

Thank you. And our next question comes from Frank Mitsch with Fermium Research. Please state your question.

Speaker 13

Good morning. This is Yuzan for Frank. First question around the lower CapEx, that $400,000,000 to $450,000,000 range. How much of that is maintenance CapEx? And I just want to confirm, I heard correctly that the early look on 2025 is calling for a similar range?

Speaker 5

Yes. What we said in the past is our maintenance right now most years is going to run between $3,000,000 $350,000,000 and then the balance of capital we would spend each year is going to be for productivity and growth. So really kind of the earnings growth piece of it. I would just kind of remind you that as we said historically, we have been able to generate a high teens, low 20% return on our higher bucket of capital. So that tends to be we do focus on returns overall on all of our capital, but maintenance is in that 3 to 3.50 range.

Speaker 3

Got it.

Speaker 13

And I know that the synergies for the first half came in around $40,000,000 Just curious what gives you guys the confidence that it will more than double in the second half of the year to reach that $150,000,000 level?

Speaker 5

Yes. It's really the run rate that we're on and the actions that we've taken. I mean most of the synergies this year are on the cost side of the equation. There are some revenue synergies as I alluded to earlier. But it's mainly cost and the actions that we've taken.

Speaker 5

We made several announcements around our manufacturing footprint. Those are rolling in. The Yountrope facility has been shut down and we're kind of ramping up servicing customers from other locations now. We'll have the next site, which will come out of the network here in the Q4. And so with some of those announcements as well as some of the actions we've taken on the functional side of things, such as implementation of our IT systems on an integrated basis.

Speaker 5

The benefits of that really were always more second half weighted.

Speaker 13

Got it. Thank you, guys.

Operator

Our next question comes from David Begleiter with Deutsche Bank. Please state your question.

Speaker 14

It's David Huang here for Dave. I guess you noted lower level of participation in spot activity in both halves, tails and tow. What percentage did you sell to the spot market before the outage? And I guess how should we think about the ramp of those activity in second

Speaker 5

half? Overall, each product line has a different kind of percentage that's weighted towards spot versus contract and each region is a little bit different. I would say on the appetite tow side of things, things are a little lower percentage that is spot versus contract. Most of that business is contract. In our other product lines, in acetic acid, BAM, emulsions, for example, it's different by region.

Speaker 5

And so I think just with the constraints that we had due to some of the supplier outages, we just we didn't have the same flexibility that we typically do to be able to flex our value chain in the Western Hemisphere, which limited some of those opportunities.

Speaker 14

Okay, got it. And then, medical, can you explain the other timing impact in the quarter? And I think some of your peers are still talking about continued destocking medical. I guess, how has applications outside of implants performed in the quarter?

Speaker 5

It's been very stable. Our medical business has been a key growth area for us. It has been an area focused really around growing in the areas where we can be successful in picking some of the winning spaces. But we've talked a lot about implants. We've also talked a lot about drug delivery, continuous glucose monitoring, a lot of different megatrends there that have been useful for our polymers and we've been working these opportunities for a long period of time.

Speaker 5

Our medical implant business in general certainly is getting better each year, but you are going to have some fluctuations from quarter to quarter. So said that's really not demand related, it's just kind of more normal order patterns. And our business outside of implants has been extremely stable and growing. Okay. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from Hassan Ahmed with Alembic Global. Please state your question.

Speaker 15

Good morning, Laurie. Laurie, a couple of quarters ago in your prepared remarks, you guys talked about sort of maximizing the make versus buy flexibility at Celanese. Particularly now in light of the force majeure on the AestheticVAM side of things, is there a sort of heightened level of urgency around that? I mean, how are you thinking about that? And what form will that take on a go forward basis?

Speaker 4

I don't think what we've experienced, Hassan, would change our view. I mean, we always want to have so keep our customers whole and to meet our contractual commitments with our customers. So in reliability situations, turnarounds or whatever, having that ability is good. And then the other side of that is like we've seen in nylon when the margins for raw polymer got so low, it is really helpful that we had taken the steps to shut down to where we could be buying raw polymer on the market in what was a very low price situation, certainly lower than we would have been able to make it ourselves. So again, I don't think

Speaker 3

our view is changing

Speaker 4

at all in terms of wanting to it ourselves. So again, I don't think our view is changing at all in terms of wanting to always have that ability to make or buy depending on the economic situation and also to help us through periods of operational shortages.

Speaker 15

Understood, understood. Extremely helpful. And just as a follow-up, I know you've made a couple of comments about the undifferentiated sort of nylon side of the market. Can you sort of dig a little deeper for us on what the goings on are with regards to supply demand fundamentals over there? I mean, you obviously flagged the whole notion of Chinese capacity being below the cost curve right now.

Speaker 15

So how do you see this year and over the next couple of years supply demand dynamics standing out?

Speaker 5

I mean, look, nylon is no different than the rest of our portfolio in Engineered Materials. You kind of have 3 categories of business there. You have a standard grade category. You have a kind of a specked in category where you have more competition. Then you have the really specialty new applications area.

Speaker 5

And it's really important that we play in all three buckets there just because customers oftentimes are buying all three and we want to make sure we're also filling out our assets. And so it is while the competitiveness in the standard grades is definitely there, there's still really good opportunities kind of in that stepped in and specialty area. I mean, just a simple data point in the first half of the year, we actually closed over 400 projects in our nylon business using the pipeline model. That's a significant step up from the second half of last year. And so it's a good proof point that what we're doing there and really the commercial team's focus on working with customers and building really nice differentiated business for the long term is going to pay off.

Speaker 5

We're going to have to participate in the basic blocking and tackling part of the marketplace. But having that flexibility Laurie just talked about is so critical in us kind of building this more contemporary nylon model that can be overall successful and can continue to grow.

Speaker 14

Very helpful. Thank you so much.

Operator

Our next question comes from Salvator Tiano with Bank of America. Please state your question.

Speaker 3

Yes. Thank you very much.

Speaker 16

So firstly, I want to understand, I think you so on the $25,000,000 packet that you mentioned the timing as well as some inventory changes that will weigh on Q3 in Engineering Materials. Does this mean that you were essentially producing above sales in the first half and therefore what this €25,000,000 is while this is a headwind to Q3, it was actually a pull forward effectively in H1 for the full year. Is that how we should think about it?

Speaker 5

Yes. So a large chunk of that is some of the footprint actions that we've taken. And we've been building inventory now for a number of quarters. So I wouldn't look at it as kind of being a big benefit in Q2 in particular. It's kind of been a gradual uptick.

Speaker 5

We also just have some kind of normal. We have certain products that have campaign runs. And so you'll have a little bit of an uptick from time to time and then a downtick. So I wouldn't look at it as being materially different for that piece than what we've typically seen.

Speaker 16

Okay, perfect. And the other thing I want to understand is that if I heard correctly, I think there's a comment that next year's synergies will be similar to this year's levels, which I believe we're still targeting $150,000,000 Firstly, is that correct? And secondly, if I go back to the initial cost synergies targets from your M and M slides, I believe there was like more like a $50,000,000 $60,000,000 $70,000,000 figure left. So how do you get to a number that's more than double that next year?

Speaker 4

Yes. So let me clarify itself because probably my comments weren't clear before. If you look at 2023, we had $100,000,000 of synergies. And if you look at 20 24, dollars 150,000,000 And so my comment was, look, I don't have an exact number yet for 25 because we've been very focused on 2024. But I think our synergy should be based on the actions that we're taking here this year in the same range as the last 2 years, so somewhere in that range.

Speaker 4

And then the remainder of the step up in 2025 is really the improved performance of asset yields with no force majeure, a full year of CLK productivity and then we should have some further interest rate reductions. So those are the things that I know about for 20 25. But as I said, it's still too early to give any number with confidence on 2025.

Speaker 7

Great. Thank you very much.

Operator

Our next question comes from Laurence Alexander with Jefferies. Please state your question.

Speaker 1

Good morning. I just want to confirm that the midpoint of your outlook for the back half of the year is predicated it looks like it's predicated on your automotive volumes being up like mid single digits, call it 2%, 3% above a flat to slightly positive auto build rate. Is that right?

Speaker 4

We are expecting some uptick, some moderate volume increase, I would say, in volumes into automotive.

Operator

Our next question comes from Patrick Cunningham with Citi. Please state your question.

Speaker 17

Hi, good morning. Thanks for taking my question. And you talked a little bit about the weaker non contracted sales for tow. How meaningful is this in terms of typical tow sales? How is the contract side of the business performing?

Speaker 17

And what are your medium term supply and demand expectations for the tow business?

Speaker 5

Yes, I mean, tow business has been very stable, Patrick. And the contracted piece of the business has performed as expected. Again, as I mentioned earlier, the non contracted part is a small percentage. It's just we did see a little bit of inventory reduction from our customers in that part of the sector during the Q2. So it we don't expect it necessarily to continue going forward.

Speaker 17

Got it. That's helpful. And then maybe just within nylon, you touched on this a little bit, but can you just talk about the contemporary business model here? How you feel it performs? How you're maybe thinking about the footprint if we see further pressure from here?

Speaker 17

On the flip side, would you put incremental cost back into this business if demand improves or the make versus buy economics change?

Speaker 5

We're just really proud of the team. I mean, the team has come together and embraced a different way of operating here and we're taking the idea is really across each function in the organization to really go and build out a model that we can be proud of that can deliver greater than 25% EBITDA in any economic environment. And that's our target. We're early in it. I mean, we've had some good success.

Speaker 5

We're seeing margin expansion as we talked about. We're seeing nice wins coming from our project pipeline, but we have to continue to work the cost side of the equation. We have to continue to focus on really bringing our organization together to embrace the pipeline model and continue to elevate the returns that we're getting overall from the business. So depending on what the market gives us, we're going to have to pivot much like we do in other parts of our business, both in acetyls and EM. And it's building those muscles to be able to adapt as things change from quarter to quarter.

Speaker 17

Very helpful. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from John Roberts with Mizuho Securities. Please state your question.

Speaker 5

Just going back to nylon in China here. They have a lot of producers who serve both the plastics and fiber markets. And given the weak carpet and textile markets, are you seeing some of that China nylon shift from fiber to plastics? I know some applications can't switch, but I thought there was enough that could switch that maybe that would be pressuring the market? John, that's really not where we're seeing the pressure from.

Speaker 5

And there's a lot of consistent players in the plastics market. So I wouldn't say that's been a material issue. Got it. Thank you. Diego,

Speaker 1

we'll make the next question or last one, please.

Operator

Thank you. And our final question for today comes from John McNulty with BMO Capital Markets. Please state your question.

Speaker 18

Good morning. Thanks for taking my question. So Laurie, I think you said of the original $150,000,000 that you expected to get from lower raw materials kind of working through, you're going to get about half that. Does the other half get pushed out into 2025? Or is it really just an opportunity that just given the circumstances, you're just not going to be able to capture?

Speaker 18

I guess, how should we be thinking about that?

Speaker 4

I would think about it as we weren't able to capture it this year. There's no guarantee we'll be there next year. If you think about it, the cost of inventory we're building right now is will be what we see in the first half of next year, at least in the engineered materials. So I can't count on that for next year. I mean, we just have to see how cost of inventory goes for the rest of this year.

Speaker 18

Okay, fair enough. And then I guess with regard to the acetic acid capacity that came on in China, the 2 new world scale plants. I think like one of the issues was that you didn't see a whole lot of the downstream assets come on yet, and I think that was putting pressure on the ethytic acid prices. Can you give us an update as to whether or not those downstream assets have come on yet? And if they haven't, does that mute the ability for growth or improvement in the market even as China construction starts to come back on and some of the downstream demand starts to come back on?

Speaker 18

I guess how should we be thinking about that?

Speaker 4

So John, some of the uses that those plants were expected to serve were things like capillactin, which is new, PVOH, EVA. I'm not sure about the capillactin sign if I'm honest. But PVOH, I think, is up and okay. EVA is up from what we know, but honestly, EVA demand right now or not EVA demand, but utilization of the EVA plants has gone to 70% or below from what we know. So again, just because of the softness right now in solar panels.

Speaker 4

And so I think while it may be up, we're not seeing those plants consuming the volume of BAM that we would normally expect.

Speaker 5

Yes. John, really the root cause of that is the end use demand, particularly paints, coatings, construction and some of the solar spaces, Laurie mentioned, are just are weak. And so, yes, while we've seen capacity come on in acetic acid and pricing kind of move up and down, our margins have been largely stable now, for quite a while. We've seen compression in van margins because that construction sector as well as solar has been so weak. So I think that's more of kind of where that compression has been seen.

Speaker 18

Got it. Thanks very much for the color.

Speaker 2

Thank you. And I'll now hand

Operator

the floor back to Bill Cunningham for closing remarks.

Speaker 1

Thank you. We'd like to thank everyone for listening in today. As always, we're available after the call for any follow-up questions. Diego, please go ahead and close out the call.

Operator

This concludes today's conference. All parties may now disconnect. Have a good day.

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Earnings Conference Call
Celanese Q2 2024
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