Simon Property Group Q3 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
November 1, 2024

There are 13 speakers on the call.

Operator

Greetings, and welcome to the Simon Property Group Third Quarter 20 24 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. A question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Tom Ward, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations.

Operator

Thank you, Tom. You may begin.

Speaker 1

Thank you, Paul. Good morning, and thank you for joining us today. Presenting on today's call are David Simon, Chairman, Chief Executive Officer and President and Brian McDane, Chief Financial Officer. A quick reminder that statements made during this call may be deemed forward looking statements within the meaning of the Safe Harbor of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, and actual results may differ materially due to a variety of risks, uncertainties and other factors. We refer you to today's press release and our SEC filings for a detailed discussion of the risk factors related to those forward looking statements.

Speaker 1

Please

Speaker 2

note

Speaker 1

that this call includes information that may be accurate only as of today's date. Reconciliations of non GAAP financial measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures are included within the press release and the supplemental information in today's Form 8 ks filing. Both the press release and the supplemental information are available on our IR website at investors. Simon.com. Our conference call this morning will be limited to 1 hour.

Speaker 1

For those who would like to participate in the question and answer session, we ask that you please respect our request to limit yourself to one question. I am pleased to introduce David Simon.

Speaker 2

Good morning, everybody. And I'm pleased with our financial and operational performance in the Q3. We saw increased leasing volumes, occupancy gains and total retail sales volumes. Demand for our space from a broad spectrum of tenants is strong and steady, and we continue to strengthen our unique retail real estate platform through our growing development and redevelopment pipeline. This combined with our A rated balance sheet really sets us apart and allows us to focus on the future.

Speaker 2

We raised our dividend again to $2.10 We're now at our historical high, overcoming the arbitrary capricious closing of our real estate during COVID. We have a low payout ratio. And I now turn it over to Brian, who will cover our Q3 results and full year guidance in more detail. Brian? Thank you, David, and good morning.

Speaker 2

Real Estate FFO was $3.05 per share in the Q3 compared to $2.91 in the prior year, a 4.8% growth rate. Domestic and international operations had a very good quarter and contributed $0.15 of growth driven by a 3% increase in lease income. 3rd quarter funds from operation were $1,070,000,000 or $2.84 per share as compared to $1,200,000,000 or $3.20 per share last year. 3rd quarter results include $0.13 per share of non cash net loss and fair value adjustments from the mark to market on the Clay Pier exchangeable bonds we issued in November of 2023, which mature in November of 20 20 The non cash loss on derivative is due to the outperformance of Clay Pier's stock price, which increased 18% during the Q3. As a result of the stock appreciation, the market value of our Clay Pier investment increased by approximately $400,000,000 during the Q3.

Speaker 2

OPI was an $0.08 loss in the quarter due to reduced discretionary spending by the lower income consumer at 2 Spark Brands and also from the loss of income from ABG in the prior year due to the sale of our interest earlier this year. As a reminder, the prior year results include $0.32 per share in non cash gains from the partial sale of our ownership in Spark in the Q3 of 2023. Domestic NOI increased 5.4% year over year for the quarter due to continued leasing momentum, resilient consumer spending and operational excellence delivered the results exceeding our plan for the quarter. Portfolio NOI, which includes our international properties at constant currency grew 5% for the quarter. Malls and outlet occupancy at the end of the 3rd quarter was 96.2%, an increase of 1% compared to the prior year.

Speaker 2

The mills occupancy was 98.6% at the end of the quarter. Average base minimum rent for the malls and outlets increased 2.3% year over year and the mills increased 4.5% year over year. Leasing momentum continued across the portfolio. We signed approximately 1200 leases for 4,000,000 square feet in the quarter. Through the 1st 9 months of 2024, we have signed more than 3,900 leases for 15,000,000 square feet, which is expected to generate more than $1,000,000,000 of revenue.

Speaker 2

We have an additional 1800 deals in our pipeline, including renewals for more than $600,000,000 of revenue. We continue to see strong broad based demand from the retail community, including continued strength for many categories. Reported retailer sales per square foot was $7.37 for the mall and premium outlets combined and was up approximately 1% year over year excluding 2 retailers. Importantly, total sales volumes excluding those same 2 retailers were up approximately 1.5% year over year. The end of the quarter, our occupancy cost was 12.8%.

Speaker 2

Turning to new development and redevelopment. We opened Tulsa Premium Outlets on August 15 at 100% leased and we've also opened a significant expansion at Busan Premium Outlets in South Korea in September. At the end of the quarter, new development and redevelopment projects were underway across all platforms in the U. S. And internationally, with our share of net cost of $1,300,000,000 at a blended yield of 8%.

Speaker 2

Turning to other platform investments. Our OPI results for the Q3 at Spark underperformed as the lower income consumer continues to be more cautious in their spending. We first highlighted the inflationary impact in the second half of twenty twenty two relative to this consumer. Performance was below expectations at Forever 21 and Reebok. Spark and J.

Speaker 2

C. Penney did however record sequential improvements in comp sales during the Q3, which sets these brands up well for the important upcoming holiday season. We are not sitting still and we expect to have some positive announcements by year end with respect to these businesses. Turning to our balance sheet. During the quarter, we amended and extended our $3,500,000,000 supplemental revolving credit facility for 3 years on existing terms.

Speaker 2

We also issued $1,000,000,000 in senior notes with a term of 10 years and a 4.75% interest rate. This was clearly good timing on our part. During the 1st 9 months of the year, we completed refinancings of 14 property mortgages for a total of approximately $1,300,000,000 at an average rate of 6.13%. We ended the quarter with approximately $11,100,000,000 of liquidity and at the end of the quarter on subsequent to the end of the quarter on October 1, we repaid our last remaining unsecured maturity for 2024 of $900,000,000 We constantly innovate in both our physical and digital worlds to create world class convenience for our shoppers and drive incremental sales for our brand partners. In continuing this effort and building upon the success of SHOP Premium Outlets, we rebranded our digital marketplace, ShopSimon, to take advantage of all of our assets, including shopper email list totaling over 25,000,000 customers.

Speaker 2

The expanded and rebranded digital marketplace adds on sale and discounted merchandise, while continuing to offer outlet products from leading brands. This is the next phase in our journey to create the ultimate omnichannel experience. We also launched a new nationwide marketing campaign, Meet Me at the Mall. The campaign celebrates the shopping mall's continued cache as the go to destination for all generations. Turning to our dividend.

Speaker 2

Today, we announced our dividend of $2.10 per share for the Q4, a year over year increase of 10.5%. The dividend is payable on December 30. This is the 4th consecutive quarter we have increased our dividend and the dividend is now back to our pre pandemic record high. Finally, turning to guidance. We are affirming our guidance range of $12.80 to $12.90 per share, which excludes $0.14 per share year to date impact of the non cash loss and fair value adjustments from the mark to market on the Clay Pier exchangeable bonds, which prior to the Q3 was only a $0.01 net non cash loss, but is now $0.14 and needed to be highlighted.

Speaker 2

With that, thank you for your time today. David and I are now available for your questions. Operator?

Operator

Thank you. We'll now be conducting a question and answer session. Thank you. Our first question is from Steve Sakwa with Evercore ISI. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 3

Yes, thanks. Good morning, David and Brian. It sounds like you've got great momentum on the leasing front and with portfolio north of 96%. I'm just curious how you guys are attacking the lease expiration schedule over the next couple of years and whether you feel like pricing power is moving materially in your favor just given the interplay with sales being a little bit flat, but obviously there being strong demand for high quality retail space?

Speaker 2

Yes. Steve, I'll answer that simplistically, I guess. I would say that our job is to continue to improve the merchandise mix at our real estate. And so it's more than it's a lot more than just what rent you can charge. It's really what is the right retailer tenant, etcetera.

Speaker 2

What's the right mix for that property? And we take more of a holistic approach to how we remerchandise centers. We're still undergoing significant remerchandising across the portfolio, because we're seeing better retailers. When I say retailers, it could be restaurants, etcetera. I'm using that as a generic term.

Speaker 2

We're seeing a lot more interesting and better retailers that are interested in our portfolio. So we need to take advantage of that and that's the focus. So obviously supply and demand, I mean construction costs are up 60% from pre pandemic numbers. I mean pretty staggering number. And we're basically one of the few that can build and overcome that.

Speaker 2

So there is no real new supply. And that does put us in a positive light. But our job is to make the properties better and not just focus on the highest rent per square foot we can get. So with that, we have a balanced approach. Obviously, we think we still have growth as leases expire or we bring in new tenants.

Speaker 2

But I don't I really don't like the term pricing power. I really don't like to focus on that. It's just how do you continue to make the portfolio better is really the number one focus for our team. We just literally had 3 day marathon session. We go property by property with our leasing folks.

Speaker 2

We did the malls this week. We'll do the outlets and mills next week. And if you participate in it, I think I offered somebody one time down the road to who was it, Alex probably. Alex is the only guy that would want to sit through it. But if you sat through it, the primary focus is how do we make the property better.

Speaker 2

We still have work to do there. But I think at the end of the day, when you do that, you'll get the property growth that we're all looking for. So I would characterize it that way, Steve. The good news is supply and demand is in our favor. We have the capital to invest in our portfolio to make it better, overcome the unbelievable rise in construction costs when you think about it and that's the focus.

Speaker 3

All right. Well, I'm free next week if you want me to sit in on the meeting. Thanks.

Speaker 2

You're more than welcome. You get to choose outlets or mills, all right? Let Tom know, okay?

Speaker 3

All right. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Thank you. Thanks, Steve.

Operator

Our next question is from Caitlin Burrows with Goldman Sachs. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 4

Hi, good morning, everyone. David, you mentioned a growing development and redevelopment pipeline. I was wondering if you can go through like how deep this opportunity is for Simon's portfolio now considering all that you've already done. To what extent is there still potential for anchor replacement or other retail redevelopments and then also the larger mixed use projects?

Speaker 2

Yes, I think that continues, Caitlin, to be a huge focus for us. So I would our pipeline is probably around 4 $1,000,000,000 right now. That doesn't mean we're going to do all of it, but we have massive mixed use opportunities ahead of us. And we still don't have all the anchors redevelop the way we want to. So we have opportunities like a Barton Creek or down the line if you looked at kind of some of the Sears, Fashion Valley is a great opportunity where we're going to get the JCPenney space back and probably do about a $500,000,000 redevelopment between retail and mixed use.

Speaker 2

Our residential pipeline, as an example of that is over $1,000,000,000 today. And without including kind of the Fashion Valleys or the Barton Creeks of the world that we think could do residential. And we continue to see an interesting relationship between residential development adjacent or part of our existing retail format. They actually go hand in glove. It's very encouraging to see.

Speaker 2

I think if you listen to Don Wood, he'll tell you the same thing. So that is exciting. We're going full steam ahead. As you know, that supply, it's probably in certain markets been oversupplied, but the reality is nobody building now. And if you think how we're looking at it, it's going to take 2 to 3 to 4 years.

Speaker 2

And as we bring these on, there'll be no new supply. And I think that'll put us in an advantageous situation. So long story short, say $4,000,000,000 roughly a third of that is probably resi. Less than one off. Less than one off.

Speaker 2

But some off, it's like for instance, We just approved a deal and I don't think it's in our 8 ks, but we just approved a deal at Clear Fork, which is in Fort Worth, kind of a newer center. We just approved to deal with our partner to build an office and retail on the ground floor. The office is going to be, I don't know if I can say it, but basically, we don't have it's not big, it's 50,000 square feet and Wells is going to take the majority of it. And so we'll still do smatteries of those kind of projects as we go forward. But building a big spec office out of our pipeline.

Speaker 4

Got it. And just to confirm, I know in there you were talking about retail office, well, not so much office and the multifamily. You mentioned at one point in there overbuilding that was on the residential side, correct?

Speaker 2

Correct. Correct. Correct. Yes. Correct.

Speaker 4

Got it. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question is from Jeffrey Spector with Bank of America. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 5

Great. Thank you. Maybe just following up on the first question topic, David, your comments on merchandising mix, maybe something else that is sometimes overlooked. I know you guys talked about your the omni channel experience and what you're doing there, Meet Me at the Mall. Can you expand a little bit on some of the key initiatives that the company is doing to again engage customers, bring them to the centers and how this may evolve over the next few years?

Speaker 5

I know, of course, this holiday season, you have some great programs. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Sure. So I would say, Jeff, that the mall continues to be a unique gathering place. And we get I think we all get too focused on whether it's enclosed, has a roof on it. I mean, it really to me, it really doesn't matter. It's kind of what is the best retail project in that trading area.

Speaker 2

And we believe that and if you talk to really new and exciting companies like Ashiyan or other SKIMS or kind of the new wave of retailersmarketplaces, they all believe in our product. And so and we're seeing a rejuvenation of the younger consumers wanting to hang out at the mall. And I think it's our obligation, both for us and our investors, etcetera, and also for the retailers to really highlight that. Now we don't have unlimited budgets like the tech companies, right? But we try to do the best we can to reinforce that, hey, this is cool.

Speaker 2

Now at the same time, digital is important, right? So 14%, 15% of commerce is digital and we think we can play in a role in that. We think the best way to do that is through Shop Simon. We made sure we had proof of concept before we put kind of our brand on it. If you remember, it started SHOP Premium Outlets.

Speaker 2

We floundered around until we partnered with Michael Rubin and RGG. We've created we hired some top notch talent there. We're building our marketplace. We had proof of concept and then we decided to rebrand it under ShopSimon. So we do think and then ultimately this will add we'll hang out loyalty product on that, which will be important.

Speaker 2

And then ultimately, we have Simon Search, which will hang on that. And we'll end up with ship from store, pick up at the mall, etcetera. So it's the flywheel is starting to fill itself out. But in the meantime, we want to reaffirm the positive nature that our product means to the community, means to our retailers as we grow on. And we can't ignore digital because, well, let's face it, it is around that 14%, 15%.

Speaker 2

It's not growing the way it used to, but we have to assume it bites. So we have to play in there. And I think with ShopSimon, we've got the right product, our retailer relationships and faith they have in us gives me confidence. We have the right team. We have the right partner in RTG.

Speaker 2

I think it gives us confidence that we'll continue to create real value out of that platform. But it's not overnight, it takes time, takes investment, prudent investment and that's what we're doing.

Speaker 5

Great. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question is from Craig Mailman with Citi. Please proceed with your question. Hey,

Speaker 1

good morning.

Speaker 6

Maybe just a follow-up on the shop Simon concept, David. As you guys are looking to remerchandise malls and there could be some more anchor fallout over time.

Speaker 2

I mean, is the idea here to hopefully get this up and running

Speaker 6

to where you guys can convert part of the mall to last mile distribution and be able to bring in that logistics angle to your business, to help your retailers and also be able to monetize it or am I reading

Speaker 7

a little bit too much into it?

Speaker 2

Well, I do think there is absolutely a role that we can play in search at your local store that happens to be in our center. And then maybe there's a distribution angle and certainly pickup in stores and angle that we can help facilitate with our retailers. Whether we'll build a mini distribution center or not. I mean, we look at those things and there's possibilities of certain retailers or certain centers that we might be able to do a micro or mini distribution facility. We're also looking at last mile in the power area because obviously that's going crazy and that there is our real estate is unbelievably well located and it does

Speaker 3

it is

Speaker 2

not we're not out in the hinterlands and last mile is very important and we usually have real estate that's A1A. So there's possibilities. It's not going to be dominant or whatever. It will be selective, but there are potential possibilities. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is from Greg McGinniss with Scotiabank. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 6

Hey, good morning. Congrats on the strong leasing quarter crossing 96% in occupancy ahead of

Speaker 2

Yes. Are you going to step there?

Speaker 6

Go or you're functionally full?

Speaker 2

Well, look, I think we can still increase our occupancy, but also beyond occupancy, and I said earlier, it's really we're really focused on merchandising. So and but we still have room to grow our occupancy, but more important is that bringing in the right tenants in the right center, in the right location. That's a huge focus for us. But we still think we have plenty of opportunity to grow our occupancy.

Speaker 6

Okay, thanks. And just one quick one on FFO per share guidance. Just trying to better understand the expense for your contribution from real estate as opposed to some of the noise generated by other platform investments. Are you still anticipating around 0¢ from OPI or is that lower now and maybe offset by real estate performance?

Speaker 2

Greg, it's Brian. I think we now think the OPI contribution is going to be a minus 5 to minus 10 for the year, but it's being offset by significant improvement in the real estate FFO estimation.

Speaker 6

Okay. So overall then

Speaker 2

We expect it to improve in the Q4 for sure.

Speaker 6

Right. But I guess overall, I think my takeaway is that the real estate business guidance would be very successful if it were standalone.

Speaker 2

Yes. If we if OPI is you're breaking up, I don't know if it's our phone or yours, but OPI has been a drag this year from an FFO point of view. Now remember, we essentially have 4 assets in OPI, okay? We have our investment in RGG. We have our investment in Jamestown.

Speaker 2

We have our interest in Spark and JCPenney. You put it all together, we have positive EBITDA in those business of a meaningful amount. But again, when you own an interest in a retailer, you've got lots of depreciation, lots of expenses that end up hurting FFO, but not necessarily the EBITDA line. So I just want everybody to put in that perspective. And again, I would also mention to you that our investment in both Penny and Spark is de minimis at this point.

Speaker 2

We have a little bit more investment in RGG and Jamestown, but the size of our company is the right thing to do. So with that said, and Brian said in our call, well, we are still not standing still on our retail side, which is Penny and Spark. And I do think we'll have some positive announcements with respect to those businesses near year end or early 2025. So we're working hard on that. But the bottom line is it has been a drag this year.

Speaker 2

Part of that drag was because we sold ABG. So we lost that income that we thought that we when we gave you our budget, we weren't anticipating. We're extremely happy with that sale. So that was the right thing to do at the right time. And but so we've tackled one opportunity, we're tackling the next.

Speaker 2

We view RGG and Jamestown as long term investments at this point. Obviously, that can change, but we view those as long term investments. And again, so and if you go back in history, which I think is important, when we got into the retail business, it was the right thing to do at that particular time. We are less given today's time, which probably not the right thing to do. And that's why we haven't done a retail investment in a few years, 4 years.

Speaker 2

So we're smart. We get it, but we're focused in we have an investment that's worth something with no capital in it. So our job is to make it better and that's what we're focused on. A little diversion from what you wanted, but I figured I'd give you the full story. Okay.

Speaker 2

All the color is appreciated. Thank you. No worries. Thanks, Craig.

Operator

Our next question is from Ron Kamden with Morgan Stanley.

Speaker 2

Ron? Looks like we lost Ron.

Operator

Our next question is from Alexander Goldfarb with Piper Sandler. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 8

Hey, good morning out there, David. And yes, I'll happy to coordinate with Tom and Steve on sitting in on one of those leasing sessions with you.

Speaker 2

Well, we'll do it. You might you'll either be fully impressed or you'll the detail might overwhelm you. So we'll see.

Speaker 8

I look forward to being overwhelmed. So question David, just getting back to the commentary on the 96% plus leased performance of the portfolio and the comments that you've made about the opportunity in the malls. As you look at the bottom tier, for a long time you talked about the bottom 20% driving cash flow to reinvest in the top malls. But given how competitive the retail environment has become, lack of new supply, are you seeing new opportunities in your bottom 20% of malls that previously you would have just harvested for cash flow, but because of the changing landscape, you now see opportunities that didn't exist a few years ago?

Speaker 2

That's a good that's a really interesting question and a good point. I think based on if you asked everybody on the last 3 days of the mall portfolio, we absolutely not every asset in the bottom tier. And again, I don't like that phrase, but I'm going to use it anyway. I would tell you if you talk to our team, our leaders in that area, John Murphy and Eric Sadi, Rick, God love him, still loves to go through it, and John Ruhle, etcetera. I would say to you, one of the real opportunities for this company is to improve the bottom twenty.

Speaker 2

And because you're right, there's no new supply in those markets, Just like human nature, we always want to work on the sector stuff, right? So I do think there's a real potential to improve that because in many cases, we're the only game in town. And given lack of supply and our ability to reinvest, I do think we can make real strides in the bottom tier, again, not every asset, but the majority plus of them. So that's a big focus going into 2025 without question.

Operator

Thank you.

Speaker 2

Sure.

Operator

Our next question is from Flores VanDykem with Compass Point. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 9

Good morning, guys. Thanks. Question on the leasing. By the way, I thought the response to Alex's question was fascinating, by the way, because we believe that the B malls or the lower quality malls financing might finally be coming back to that market now too. But maybe if you can talk about your S and O pipeline.

Speaker 9

Last quarter, you mentioned it was 250 basis points. How has that moved? I saw that Hermes just opened up its store in Phipps. And what percentage of that S and O pipeline is luxury in your view? Is it meaningful?

Speaker 9

And are there other FIPS type luxury projects planned in the portfolio going forward?

Speaker 2

Yes. Let me yes, interesting question again. And I would say I have it right in front of me, or I used to. Okay. So we have executed 75 new luxury deals covering 208,000 square feet.

Speaker 2

And we have another 47 out for signature. So that's kind of the total out there at this point. But again, we're increasing that every day as we speak. So yes, we even though the sales for certain brands has slowed in that area, they are continuing to commit and for us, as you know, I mean the build out and the time for those retailers to open is probably compared to kind of a traditional retailer is longer. But we've got a very impressive pipe on that with a lot of square footage that will open over the next few years and growing to this day.

Speaker 2

And Floris, the signed but not open number is about 300 basis points. And importantly here though, as you've heard David talk about multiple times, this is about merchandising mix. So this isn't all incremental. We're swapping out underperforming retailers or better retailers. And we do have retailers making commitments well into the future in that number as well.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Gus. Thanks.

Operator

Our next question is from Vince Tibone with Green Street.

Speaker 10

Hi, good morning. Could you provide some color on the cadence of stabilization the development and redevelopment pipeline? Specifically, if you could share how much incremental NOI you're expecting in 2025 from the pipeline on a net basis, all the openings this year and next, offset by any disruptor downtime with new projects, that would be super helpful for forecasting.

Speaker 2

Yes. Vince, we think we're ultimately going to deliver about 30% of the portfolio investment in 25. So against the 8% unlevered yield, I think you can back into the estimated income contribution from that those data points.

Speaker 10

And is that like an average then? Or I should think of that as like 30% on average will stabilize? Because like stuff that delivered the Q3, for example, this year is obviously going to be accretive to 25%. Just wanted to clarify that point.

Speaker 2

Yes. I think that's a decent run rate for expectation relative to our development business. About onethree probably stabilizes.

Speaker 10

Great. That's helpful. And if I can squeeze in one more follow-up. Could you just provide a quick description of any mall redevelopment started in the quarter? I saw the spend increase some, but no description in the release of the project.

Speaker 2

So we started a resi project at Briarwoods, and we started a redevelopment at Tacoma. Those were the 2 big ones in the quarter that really that we added to the pipeline.

Speaker 10

Great. Thank

Speaker 2

you. Sure. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question is from Juan Sanabrio with BMO Capital Markets.

Speaker 1

Good morning. Just given where we are with the election next week, just curious on your thoughts on potential positives or negatives that could come out depending on which side wins. And I guess specifically also what would be your view on tariffs? Is that positive or negative for Simon's business as a whole? Thank you.

Speaker 2

Well, look, I am of the view that we should we look, I'm of the view that CEOs, whether they're founders, kind of like the way I feel or up through the ranks, ought to stay out of politics, okay? That's not to say that they shouldn't lobby because there are a lot of things that go on in Washington that may affect the company and that's their job. So I'm going and I'm not here to endorse kind of take the Washington Post view that we have to be ready for all sorts of outcomes. I do think because of the vitriol that's occurring, and that's why we're cautious with respect to kind of our guidance for the Q4 is that it's an uncertain time, right? So not only here domestically and here globally, but beyond that, I really am not going to get into that.

Speaker 2

I think the decision ought to be left to individuals, people like me should stay out of trying to influence the people, the people or what matter. And we'll see what happens. We'll be prepared. There's basically 6 potential outcomes, right? If I had to do it right, you could have a Democratic sweep, you could have a Republican sweep, but then you can used to be able to do that, but 3 times, I think it's 6, right?

Speaker 2

So you could have 6 possible outcomes. We've got to be ready for all 6. And I'm not going to tell you what outcome I want. I don't think it's my job. I do think it's my job to lobby once we understand what's happening like maybe on the de minimis rule or etcetera that hurts our retailers or hurts our consumer.

Speaker 2

But beyond that, if I could be so I don't know, I want to I don't know if I should say this, it sounds guys like me, who knows what guys like me means. But we ought to like just let the people decide without this overbearing influence from outside people. That's my personal kind of view. And we just need to be ready for 6 possible outcomes.

Speaker 1

Fair enough. Understood. Thanks, David.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question is from Michael Goldsmith with UBS.

Speaker 7

Good morning. Thanks a lot for taking my question. Maybe just tying some of the themes that we've heard from the call together. Your occupancy crossed 96%, you feel like there's more room to grow, you're focused on merchandising and being selective. And it also looks like your expiring rights for 20 6 maturities are below 25 by 6% to 7%.

Speaker 7

So, given throwing it together, does that give you confidence or visibility to sustainable mid single digit NOI growth over the next couple of years?

Speaker 2

Hey, Michael, it's Brian. Yes, we do believe that we will have the momentum in our NOI will continue. All of the things you highlighted are certainly part of it, plus the investment of capital back into the business. As you've heard David say, we will be opening up projects in 2025, 2026 and 2027, but there is going to be no new supply. So that is certainly going to support our growth as well.

Speaker 7

Thank you very much.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question is from Linda Tsai with Jefferies.

Speaker 11

Thanks for taking my question. Can you provide some color on the quarter over quarter improvement in domestic and portfolio NOI? And then how do you think about NOI growth in 2025 as an initial guidepost?

Speaker 2

Well, Linda, I think the quarter we continue to see rent growth, occupancy growth, conversion of temp to perm. I think you see the quarter reflecting us executing on our business plan to a high degree. And as I just said, I think we carry that momentum into next year as we continue to execute.

Speaker 11

Any color on 25 though in terms of the same level continuing?

Speaker 2

Linda, we give our guidance in February, so we'll update you at that point in time, but I do believe that we have momentum.

Speaker 4

Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question is from Mike Mueller with JPMorgan. Yes. Hi. Two questions. First, do you think you'll see more acquisition opportunities over the next few years compared to what you've seen over the past 5 or 10?

Operator

And then the second question on development, redevelopment, what do you see as the average spend level for the next 3 years?

Speaker 2

Yes, I will I'll answer I'll let Brian take number 2, but I'll answer 1. I do listen, I think company like ours has been always structured, built, financed to buy high quality retail real estate has obviously been our primary focus. So it's hard to know whether it will be similar to what we've done the last 5 or 10 years. But there will be opportunities for us to grow. We really haven't done much of any acquisitions since the TRG deal, which was I can still remember that, it was in the height of well, it was 2 weeks before COVID.

Speaker 2

And then Bobby forgot to tell me, he should have known because he has those assets in China, but he forgot to tell me about COVID. But they've worked out for everybody involved. But so it's really been a while. That doesn't mean that we're not looking, paying attention to it, but we're being very thoughtful about what we would like to buy and at what price. And I would tell you that's not going to change, but I do think there'll be opportunities as we go forward.

Speaker 2

But again, it's hard to compare it to 5 or 10 years ago. But I do think over time, we'll grow through acquisition. Go ahead on the pipe. And Michael, I think as

Speaker 1

you think about the development

Speaker 2

and redevelopment pipeline, you heard David talk today about there's about a $4,000,000,000 shadow pipeline. We've got $1,200,000,000 committed. I think you're going to continue to see us committed for $1,500,000,000 a year. That could ebb and flow by a couple of $100,000,000 on either side, just given the size of the projects and the delivery of the projects. So we do see that level of investment available to us over in the future.

Operator

Great. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thank you, Michael.

Operator

Our next question is from Ki Bin Kim with Drew Securities.

Speaker 3

Thank you. Good morning. Just going back to shopsimon.com. Can you just provide some high level parameters on the progress you're making, the traction you're gaining? And also curious about the back end logistics side of it, if you're given the multiple brands we have, are the shipments being consolidated or is it still each individual retailer sending shipment?

Speaker 2

Yes, just I'll answer that first. I mean, look, we're early days in using Shopifymon for delivery, remember, it's mostly a marketplace, but we think over time that'll be a service that we'll be able to offer through the ShopSimon app or website. And I would say we've had remarkable growth in our GMV. We just rebranded it. So I'm only hesitant because we do have a partner in that and I'm not sure I should disclose that to you.

Speaker 2

But we've got a meaningful growth in our GMV there. And now that we're going to use our brand and our as Brian mentioned in his remarks, our $25,000,000 e mail list and add loyalty, we think the there'll be more retailers on which will add to GMV, which will add to the overall volume of the site. So I'm just going to be cautious, Kim Bin, because we have a partner there. So the good news is we're making a lot of progress and we've got real traction. We've got a number of retailers.

Speaker 2

I don't remember exactly, but Brian or Tom can tell you after the call. But I'll hold off on the GMV right now. Maybe at some point, we'll be able to disclose that.

Operator

Okay. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question is from Ron Kamden with Morgan Stanley.

Speaker 12

Hey, just a quick one for me. Just looking at the sort of the domestic NOI growth almost 5%, which is pretty strong. In the past, you sort of made some comments about next year, sort of hitting that 3% number. Just curious to get some updated comments on what you're seeing on the ground and any sort of differentiation between the mall and outlet business as well would be helpful. Thanks.

Speaker 2

Yes. Listen, I think overall, they're all kind of moving in that direction. So I appreciate you trying to get us to disclose our 20 25 comp NOI growth. We will do so in February. We're just going through the phase of that now, which is, as I mentioned to you, we did the malls this week.

Speaker 2

We do the outlets in the mills next week. But we'll absolutely share that with you with our year end earnings in early Feb. And but again, I think the momentum that we're seeing over the last couple of years continues. That's the important point.

Speaker 3

Thanks so much.

Speaker 2

Thank you. Thanks, Ron.

Operator

Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I'd like to hand the floor back over to David Simon for any closing comments.

Speaker 2

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate all the questions and interest and we'll talk soon if we don't talk early, then have a good holiday season. Thank you.

Operator

This concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.

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Earnings Conference Call
Simon Property Group Q3 2024
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